>Hi james,
>
>>Usually when I make a decision I like to make an informed decision.
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>Me too, but don't think everyone does. A lot of us are surfing the "hype" wave. Even the best of us have done this. How many VFP developers have tried to shift away from VFP to Java ?? How many have admitted it was the wrong choice??

Whether they are surfing the hype wave or not, can we agree that it is their decision to make? If it is a bad decision, then so be it, it is still their decision. Additionally, just because some want to learn about .Net it doesn't neccessarily mean they want to "shift away" to .Net. This subject is not black and white, it is not exclusively FoxPro or exclusively .Net, there is a huge gray area called interop. Will some try to switch to entirely .Net? Yes. Will everyone? No. Point is to allow developers to analyze both sides as best they can and allow them to make their own decisions.

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>>In order to make an informed decision I need to know what the advantages and disadvantages of each option are. I may do certain things to gather this information, like read some articles, play with a trial version, or ATTEND A SEMINAR. What better person to teach the advantages and disadvantages of both FoxPro and .Net than a FoxPro developer (MVP even) who is also a .Net developer (MVP there as well)? No one ever said anyone is taking blind advice from anyone. Kevin is in a position being an MVP in both areas to shed light on what those advantages and disadvantages are. Kevin's advice is not "blind" advice he is a person who has seen, been on and is currently resides on both sides of the fence.
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>The problem is that unless you really have a good sense how things are fitting in together you'll not be able to draw any objective and informed conclusion from any event.

How do you suggest one would get a "a good sense how things are fitting together"? How do you do it? I usually do as I have described above, none of which makes the decision for me, especially because what we do with FoxPro is not mainstream. I need to filter the information and make a decision on how it affects my individual situation. Here, it seems that you are suggesting that I should know all the answeres before I talk to people, read articles or attend a seminar.

>I really don't know kevin, nor his products, nor his personality at all, so I could not comment in an informed way about his knowledge, motivations and integrity. But I do know, that esspecially when talking to MVPs I really validate and critisize (in good and bad ways) anything they say. I've discussed an awfull lot with MVPs on this forum since 1998 and there is nothing that ensures that an MVP stands for knowledge, wisdom, quality and integrity. I know some outstanding MVPs and some that are not worth drawing any conclusions from.

I don't know Kevin personally, but have started using his MM VFP frameowork that I am more than satisfied with. However, given his involvement in the FoxPro community, books, frameworks, seminars, etc. it is obvious to me that he has helped a lot of people. Also that being that his VFP framework has it's own section on this thread indicates to me that it is both pretty popular enough publicly accepted. I do understand that just because they have the title of MVP doesn't mean everything they say is golden. However, in the case of Kevin (and others like Markus, Rick, etc.), having achieved MVP status in both FoxPro and .Net I value whatever information I can get from them.

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>Bottom line is, that you can attend as many conferences, speak to as many knowledgable people as you like, but as long as you don't know EXACTLY how this all fits together for your objective then it does not help you anything in making an informed decision. An this is exactly why it is so darn difficult to make such decision.
>

Again, I go to conferences and speak to knowledgable people to make a decision. Here, again, it seems that you suggest I know all the answers beforehand. If you mean that I need to filter and perspect the information to fit my situation, I thought that goes without saying. Everyones situation is different, especially in my case. My objective would not be to move our whole operation to .Net, but to find where .Net could benefit it.

>>>That is my point. .NET (in it current state) might not be the answer people are thinking it is.
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>>But can you at least concede that for SOME developers it MAY be EXACTLY what they are looking for. And that each developer is allowed to make their own decision on what is right for them?
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>Sure it is. I agree. However as I said above, I really doubt if the majority really know *IF* it is exactly what they are looking for. For most guys it may be more of a guess.

I can't speak for the "majority", I can only assume that they know what is best for them. It is not my position to assume I know if it is what they are looking for or not.

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>>>>and I haven't seen either of the Kevins state that it was.
>>>
>>>Qoute: "But the bottom line is this: as time passes, more and more Fox people will find themselves in situations where they need to learn .NET skills to maintain their careers."
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>>While the statement may or may not be true I don't see anywhere in the quote where it says Java or PHP or Python WON'T benefit a developer. That is simply because being multifaceted will benefit ANY developer whether they learn .Net, Java, PHP, Python or whatever else. Did they say learning Java or Python is a waste of time?
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>I did react on the statement above that learning .NET skills is a neccesity. I object because it is a statement that can not be proven and I'd say that many VFP developers might need to look outside the VFP box, possibly .NET, but alternatively, something else like Java, Python etc.
>

I think we both have the same understanding you just objected to the inference that .Net is the only "other" language involved.

I understand your take on the statement. Let me explain my take.

I feel that it is common knowledge that being proficient in more than one language is increasingly becoming a necessity for many developers (not just FoxPro). While the statement encompases only the need for Fox developers to learn .Net it is parallel to the neccessity of more and more developers to become proficient in more than one language.

If you agree that more and more developers will need to learn another language, then, inherently, more and more Fox developers will need to learn .Net. Since for a lot of Fox developers the "other language" will be .Net.

This does not say that .Net is the only game in town, simply that as more developers (again not just Fox) need to learn other languages somewhere in the mix more Fox developers will need to learn .Net.

>>What do you say to a developer that is being forced by their company to learn .Net? Or the independent developer that needs to pass up a project because they are not proficient in .Net? Fact is, .Net is not the only game in town, however it is the only conversion seminar Kevin is putting on and he's allowed to do it. Just becuase he is putting on a VFP->.Net conversion seminar does it obligate him to do VFP->Python and other seminars as well? Can we look forward to a seminar from you on converting VFP apps to Java or Python?
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>I have absolutely no experience in Java and Python, so no seminar from me :) However this is not the point my post was about the qoute of KevinG about the neccesity of learning .NET, not really about kevinMcN motivations to start this here.
>

Point taken.

>>Can you at least concede that there are SOME developers that may NEED to learn .Net to maintain their carrers?
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>Anyone needs to learn to maintain there carreer. Anyone might conclude that .NET is the best strategy to maintain their career, but anyone might conclude otherwise. That is not up to me nor anybody else. As I said above it really is the developers decision. Therefore I really object against posts up here from persons that are trying to make that decision for you by using arguable arguments.
>

I think we're on the same page. It seems to me know that your post was more of a "don't promote the hype" However, from my "take" on his statement above you can see that other conclusions can be drawn from the statement than the one you did.

>>>I generally have no problem and I'm not flaming kevin for that. Though I wonder if the VFP forum is the right place for such announcements. If a VFP programmer is interested in .NET he'll read the same message from the .NET forum. IMO, there is no need to push this down the throat of all VFP forum subscribers.
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>>For a seminar dedicatd to helping VFP developers I think the announcement is EXACTLY where it should be, in a VFP forum. I am semi interested in learning some .Net but I don't currently use .Net and have no questions or anything to post in the .Net forum, therefore I would have never seen the announcement there. I do frequent this forum since I use FoxPro daily and often have questions that I post in this FoxPro forum.
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>Can you answer what would happen if you'll post a JavaConversion seminar message on a Java forum? Do you think you'll be thanked for that ?? Sure you have the freedom to do so, but don't be surprised you'll be critisized for that.

I understand the post of a JavaConversion seminar in a Java forum will not be well taken. However, FoxPro is in a different position. While .Net is kind of a direct competition to Java, I don't consider .Net as exclusivly being competition to FoxPro. I see that FoxPro can do things that .Net can't and I'm assuming the opposite is true. So, where in a Java->.Net you are almost exclusively taking about replacement, .Net and VFP can have and benefit from coexistence.

I see Kevin as helping the FoxPro developers benefit from the coexistence of these two platforms which will put many FoxPro developers in a much better position than strictly .Net developers. I belive Kevin should be thanked for that.

Aloha,

James
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>Walter,