Hi John,

>Personally, I think people who claim there is no god have reached that conclusion so they can have no rules. If there is no God, then who can say what is right or wrong? Hedonism rules the day for those.

Born as catholic, I've came to the conclusion there is no god (not as described in the bible, anyways) along time ago. There was a man called christ who lived a long time ago who was a spiritual leader who gained power by saying "I'm the son of god" though AFAIK he never answered the question if he was the only son? Watch Discovery channnel ? There was an interesting documentary about who is the son of god, listing facts (rather than believes) leaving room for your own interpration. It gave an image of the things we know about christ, but also how the story of christ was recorded (By a roman, I don't recall in english (dutch paulus)). This is strange because the romans did kill christ. It seems there were at least two camps spreading the words of jesus (one that knew jesus at life, and one who knew jesus after he was been killed). It is at least strange that only the latter camp survived.

Anyways, not believing in god, does by any ways not mean that I don't live by rules. This is total wrong assumption. First of all, I have to live by the rules of the law. Second, I follow the rules of society (Again I don't know the english equivalent, but we call it freely translated, "Norms and values"). Third, How many people who are religious have broken the rules outlined by jesus? The church in general (the inquisition) have violated them in mass quantities in the past. And what to think about the sexual abuse of priests ?


What is good and wrong is not determined by the bible at all. It is determined by the society you live in. If you know the cultures of the past (I know this is difficult for an american). Look at cultures in India, China, Japan, The nazis, Mayas, Incas, early greek, the roman empire, etc. The all has their own laws and rules (culture). If you do not play by the rules, you could experience the consequences (burning witches in the dark ages (and even beyond that)).

Religion does play a role in it. Religion is created by a community, not the other way arround.
Religion often is the glue and enforcement of rules, at the terrible cost of the consequences it can have (misusing the words of god to reach your own personal gains: Read "War").

Example, You can say
"Thou shal not eat pork, because often the meat is not well preserved and you will get I'll threathening our society"

or
"Thou shal not eat pork, because god says so"

What statement would religious leaders have used trying to force the community not to eat pork?
Religion can be both a safe-heaven and a terrible nightmare, and history is swamped with examples.


I believe that there is no significant difference between good and bad as you go accross different religions. You'll see the same crimes ans same numbers. There are many other factors involved (like social and economical aspects). And though religion might affect those factors, they seldom are directly religion related.

Also, even the vatican recognizes that there are other religions and has accepted their existance.

Anyways, as a non god believer, I respect the ones who do (though I do not understand it) and accept their religion. However, I do not accept when people are trying to force their religion through fundamentalism. In the events since 911 everyone should realize that it is fine to have your own religion, but it grows out of proportions when you misuse the religion to reach you own personal goals. This has nothing to do with a particular religion. Remember that the war between
the catholics and protestants in north ireland has claimed many, many lives, and they both believe in christ !!)

History is scattered with examples of where religion did terrible things. In the 21st history we should learn the lesson that religion is something private that never should be used as a collective weapon. And this is exactly why GWB should stop mentioning "God" in any official statement about serious matters: It only makes things worse.

Walter,