Hi Peter,

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you on this discussion...

I think that we should all do whatever we're comfortable with. You should ponder, however, on the possibility of being critical of a group regardless of your being or not part of it.

Of course, being "in it" exposes you to being ostracized, which may or may not be something that bothers you.

The schism between secular and orthodox jews (or any other religion, imo) is as wide and deep as the two individuals involved choose to make it.

My first contact with orthodox jews (lubavitch) was possible because I was willing to open up and allow a new friend into my life, it was probably more out of curiosity than anything else. I never judged and never felt judged. Some may say that it's possible that that was part of a ruse in order to "grab" me, but I honestly don't think so.

In any event, if you do feel jewish, you should start thinking in terms of "we" as opposed to "they". Take a few moments and meditate about it, it's likely to make quite a difference in your thoughts.

Have fun!

Alex
PS: Keep in mind that all generalizations are bad! ;-)


>Hi Alex,
>
>Thanks for your honest and extensive reply. I like that, it deepens mutual understanding. It sometimes happens here that some tiny, but strong, statement is wrongly interpreted and that there's no easy way to make clear to the other(s) how it was meant to be interpreted. This may especcially be true when it is about politics and religion.
>
>As I already pointed out, I do feel (rather than have) strong jewish ties. I am also very strongly committed to the case of Israel. But, over time, the jews' orthodox belief has been criticized by me more and more. So, I guess I am a secular jew, as are most of my relatives. I do feel pride, not for what I've done personally in the jewish community, but for how the jews have coped in all centuries. I can't help but think that they have a more than average IQ, a more than average morale and a more than average impact on politics, all in a positive sense. But the orthodox jews... well, they keep surprising me. I tolerate (rather then respect) them, because they are peaceful, at least most of them. But I don't want to be identified with people wearing leather boxes on their head, sweaping forward and backward (complaining). Call it an identity crisis, or the schism between orthodox and secular jews. I feel a need to remain able to be critical towards the orthodox jews. The alternative
>would be to tolerate everything they say and do, just because they are jews. No, that would not be good, for me, as a person. Hope you (and Naomi/Nadya) understand and, at least, tolerate that.
>
>Regards,
>Peter
>
>>>Alex,
>>>
>>>Aren't you mixing up things here? I cannot be jealous for not being a jew, because I am a jew. I must admit, my mother isn't. Oh right, that implies that I am not a jew. Ghee, I almost forgot that. But most of my brothers and my sister are fully jewish.
>>>
>>>Whatever my real status, what I was criticizing is orthodoxy. That you made the swing from atheism to orthodoxy is really a pity. How on earth can you believe all those silly stories from the thorah?!
>>
>>Hi Peter,
>>
>>To be brutally honest, I still have to come to terms with what I believe and what I don't.
>>
>>I don't think it's a pity that I was very religious at some point. I guess it was just part of my personal quest, but I did have a great time during those years, and the fact that I didn't remain "faithful" proves that that wasn't really my path, so I'm still waiting and seeing what will happen.
>>
>>One thing I did learn from that experience, though, was that orthodox jews are not proud (literally) about one thing or another. They just flow with the punches and go on with their lives, which are as rich as anyone else's.
>>
>>There's a difference between carrying yourself with dignity (as they do) and to have an "in your face" attitude, which they don't. They don't dress in black suits as a way to distinguish themselves, they just do it because that's what they believe in. Muslims do the same, and yes, they (orthodox jews and muslims) may look different as a result but that's about it. They're happy with who they are and that's something respectable. Those that don't wish to pursue their parents' ways are always free to depart, and if their characters are strong enough they will, in spite of being ostracized by the communities they once belonged to.
>>
>>I think that non-orthodox jews have far more issues, one of which is to feel proud of being jewish, which to me is just as absurd as being proud of having a belly button or a rectum - it's something you are born with. To me one should be proud of one's accomplishments but not of something that just happens to be part of who you are.
>>
>>Non-orthodox jews often cry out that they're proud of being jewish, just like black people or gays flaunt personal characteristics as something to be proud of, and I think that's definitely wrong. If you're jewish, black, white, gay, whatever, that's just what or who you are, period. If other people choose to disrespect you for what you are, that's their loss and you can choose to worry about it or not.
>>
>>Just like you feeling jewish, which I'm sure others don't consider you, but that is THEIR problem. You are who you feel you are or who you want to be.
>>
>>BTW, during my adventures in lubavitch-land, I was accompanied by a close friend who wasn't born jewish (his grandfather was the only jew in his lineage), however, he managed to convince everyone of his jewish identity for years, and later on, as he did go on to become orthodox, underwent a formal conversion which made HIM feel complete - I never thought less of him because of this and perhaps this was the reason why he shared this dark secret with me.
>>
>>Have fun!
>>
>>Alex