Hi Walter,

FWIW, I am sympathetic to what you have said, not defensive or offended. And oddly enough, I consider myself more of a patriot than the nationalists who are about to attack me for saying this. :-) But I do trust that you & guys like Dragan have experiences and perspectives that transcend mere opinion so thank you for the analysis and critique.

Steven-


>Hi Sam,
>
>No insult intended, but me as an european, who has visited north america (both Canada and the US) serveral times, and thinks he sees more about the american society from the media than the average american knows about europe, will give my 2 cents (Euro).
>
>>My point was this. The Germans have an axe to grind with Bush. After all, if it wasn't for Bush, they would still be recieving billions of dollar of bribe money from Saddam Hussein.
>
>I don't recall the details about this scandal, but in general, it is not the government involved, but individual companies. Don't think everything in your country is honest. Who do you think motivate the bush administration to go to was in iraq ?? Yes, of course the companies making minution and other military needs ? You'll be surprised of how your government is driven by the economy of a few big companies with a lot of money and influence. Please don't act the pot calling the kettle black.
>
>
>The way I see it (and this might be personal observation) is that a lot of people don't understand how someone with the IQ of a peanut could become president of the US. I have no doubt that you only can become president of the US with closed/backdoor agreements with very powerfull people and / or family. How could you explain that two members of one family becomming the president of the US based on pure charisma and intellect (of which bush jr has none) ??
>
>What I've seen personally in the US (I was in the US a few weeks before the election) is a lot of mud throwing between the candidate, TV channnels are taking sides (In stead of beeing objective). Not talking about the political contents, but throwing fear with anecedotical consequences when you choose for the other party, without basing on deep analysis of facts. The US citizens are highly manipulated rather than well informed about the candidates (Remember the RATS incident?). We ask ourselves the question: Where is common sense? Does this stand for civilisation, and what is the difference with a dictatorship ?
>
>There are major differences between (western) europe and the US. Our social (living) standards are on a much higher level, Our infrastructure is better. The economy might be a bit less progressing compared to the US and our military less strong, but no-one is getting hungry or cannot send their children to school. Everyone has a health insurance, and when you get i'll, you'll be taking care of regardless of the insurances you've got.
>
>>Europeans in general, have an axe to grind with the United States. They love to humiliate the US.
>>Just their name "ProgressiveIndependent" says a lot about how they lean politically.
>
>They main reason (again my opinion) is that the average american has no clue on european politics, European economy, culture and politics. They only know their own world they live in. Since America is the most powerfull nation on earth and we do a lot of businesses and see a lot of american news, we do know a lot of how americans live, their politics, economy and culture. On each day you will see documentaries and reports where comparisons are made between europe and America. A very large percentage of what we see on the TV comes from north america (Series, Movies, talkshows, etc). So it is much more easy for us to see the differences.
>
>If you live in america every news seems to be political loaded, adding more confusion about the value of the news for the average american. I don't have a high opinion of the american press. They seem to be way too much politically influenced. Our press has no political dependencies on american issues, and therefore seem to be much more able to make an objective observation. IOW, you don't see the forest because of the trees. We look from a greater distance, trying to get the big picture.
>
>OTOH, The US is the country of oportunities. You can make much more money there than in europe for a lot of reasons. Also americans are better able to make a uniform decision as american are less critical to their government and 'trust their leaders'. Since we in europe are different countries and ethnic groups it is much harder to make a uniform decision on political issues.
>
>However our governments do care more about the people. The social funds for pensions and healthcare are enourmous compared to the US. I won't die or get broke for the rest of my life if I need expensive treatment and don't have the cash to do it.
>
>However, since you asked. The following as a european I object to:
>
>- America, complains about human rights in china, while the US:
> Is the only remaining country where the death penalty exists, and it has been proven that the wrong people have been executed. Yet your president is one of them who has signed the papers to execute them.
> America does not give a damn about human rights of people that have been prisoned during war in Iraq and afghanistan.
>- The average american has no clue of what is going on outside their country, therefore beeing blind for other cultures, countries, opinions, etc. Yet they are so arrogant to tell us what to do.
>- The Americans regard their country as beeing blessed by god, while having no actual idea about life outside of the US. How could they be so stupid to make such statement ?
>- On the american media you won't see much sex. Sexual education is about a forbidden topic (though I have some hope this is improving). Even 25 years ago, when I was 9 or 10 years old at least I got the needed sexual information. Yet the most violent movies are shown on TV, and has the most teen-age pregnancies of all western countries. AS a result it has the highest abortion rates, just because there is about no sexual education.
>- The US is the AFAIK the only country where you're alowed to carry a gun in public. Ever wondered why so many yound people in the US are killed because of this? Sure we have incidents as well here, but this is in no comparison to what happens in NA. The sole reason you are able to carry a gun is of the weapon lobby (probably sponsoring the political parties).
>- While you pride yourself with your economy, about 5% of the working people are prisoned, and a large percentage of the population lives in absolute poverty.
>- You fight a war against drugs you cannot win. Look at Holland copes with the issue. We have far less (percentage wise) drug addition and drug related criminality.
>-Your political system is rotten to the core. There are quite a few incidents that proves of the degenerated morality (e.g. RATS incident). What to think that right after the election of BUSH jr, someone from the republican anounced a budget of 1 million dollar to find ways to find way to discredit hilary clinton. It makes my heart puge out. The election is about finding ways to make the other side black (You remember the election between BUSH sr and Clintion where clinton was attacked again and again because he had demonstrated against the war in vietnam?). It is definately not about having the best program. It is just a game you're part of.
>
>
>Don't get me wrong, there is still enough to be proud of in america, but ignorant statements I regulary see from americans regarding their supremacy in relation to other cultures makes me wonder from time to time, you really understand the world.
>
>
>>Obviously you have strong leaning towards the left as well. But that's ok, after all this is America. You can be "anything" you want.
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>I agree, we seem to be more on the left side as we see that the american way of living (more to the right) is not the way we want to live. But note that we are far from the left called socialism. We do have democracy, we do have about the same rights as americans.
>
>BTW, Jos lives in South africa. He does not give a damn if you can be anything you want in America.
>
>If you talk to people like Dragan who came from (eastern) europe a few years ago, you'll know there are other ways than the american way of living. Talk to them and be prepared to learn a lot of foreign culture, religion, politics etc.
>
>Walter,