I think things have changed in the post-9/11 world. From the reporting of Seymour Hersh and others we know there has been pressure from the highest levels of U.S. government -- Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, that level -- to use every means available to get information from suspected terrorists in order to prevent another catastrophic attack. That can be debated, and I'm not sure I don't agree with them, at least up to a point. The last thing we want to do is coddle a prisoner who wishes us further harm. My point is simply that the rules of engagement have changed in the past 4 1/2 years. When your own Attorney General and President say outright that we don't need to feel bound by the Geneva Conventions, you know the rules have changed. At least as the U.S. government defines them.

Please do not take this that I am advocating torture. It makes me extremely, EXTREMELY uncomfortable.


>Metin,
>
>A few points.
>
>First, abuse has been claimed in almost every country over the years. I think every country tries their best to prevent it. No one in any country advocates abuse in any way. I can tell you that I never witnessed it during all my years of military service except under the hands of a foreign government and I will not say which one. I was an interrogator at the time and we routinely performed 'joint interrogations' with other countries. There have been many many claims against Turkish soldiers and police over the years as well:
>
>http://www.panos.org.uk/global/featuredetails.asp?featureid=1163&ID=1005
>Since the Turkish government’s 1984 imposition of emergency rule against Kurdish separatists in 13 south-eastern provinces, Kurdish women held in custody – as well as those holding dissident beliefs – have been strip-searched, raped, tortured and assaulted by security forces, according to the human rights group Amnesty International.
>
>http://home.cogeco.ca/~kurdistan4/5-10-04-tky-ease-repressionon-kurds.htm
>The human-rights association, meanwhile, catalogued 505 claims of abuse or torture by police in the Kurdish region in 2003.
>
>http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/armenian_genocide.htm
>The Armenian Genocide, the first genocide of the 20th Century, occurred when two million Armenians living in Turkey were eliminated from their historic homeland through forced deportations and massacres.
>
>Google will pull up hundreds just as it will for the U.S. in Iraq. I am not saying U.S. soldiers are innocent, I am saying that not all abuses are intentional, and regardless of how they occur, need to be investigated and punishment incurred. I stated in the past that your evidence was taken from 2003 and it didn't prove that abuse at the prison was still ocurring right now. I never stated it is not still ocurring, but that there is not evidence that it is and I seriously doubt it because the military has cracked down on that since the scandal.
>
>Innocent people are shot when soldiers panic in the middle of fire fights and are being shot at and one child throws a bomb and ten others throw rocks - the soldier cannot tell who is what age and who is throwing what. If you have served in the military you know this yourself. You do your best to discern who is what age and what weapons they have but it is not always possible in the heat of the battle when bullets are flying. Innocent people get killed when they drive too fast to a military checkpoint. Innocent people get killed when they drive too close or pass military convoys. All citizens of Iraq know that the military is attacked by roadside bombs and suicide bombers daily. Knowing that, those who irresponsibly pass military convoys or speed up to a checkpoint are knowlingly risking their lives. These things happen in all wars and most often are unintentional. Having written that, there are definitely cases of abuse and possibly war crimes. That is why I say that
>everything must be investigated and every story researched and supporting evidence provided and tribunals and punishment incurred when appropriate. Abuse is not the standard practice though and it is unfair to claim it is.
>
>
>>>What is your problem? You stated something, and we asked for authoritative proof. Instead of giving proof, you got defensive and said we don't want to listen. So why don't you try to prove your statement instead of trying to belittle, alright Jonny?
>>
>>I didn't called you as "Jonny" . Are you advocate of Sam?
>>
>>When Americans being aggressive we call them named "Jonny" (Coni) in Turkey. If you call me Jonny it doesn't corresponded. Because I'm not an American.
>>
>>I say again. If you want to know really, there is google. There is a lot of resource about American soldiers murders.
>>
>>http://www.sabah.com.tr/2005/08/14/dun103.html (this link in Turkish)
>>
>>http://www.atsnn.com/story/162289.html