>>Dan, again you make the mistake to think that the right and left classification is conform the US classification of left and right. IT IS NOT. This is the DUTCH/EUROPEAN classification. As I have said that I belong to the right of the dutch political arena you can pretty much figure out where I belong.
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>Did I say they should conform to the US classification? No. However, in order to compare the politics of the US and the Netherlands, we must have a common model. Left is left and right is right. Pure and simple. "Left is right" neither fits the model, nor is appropriate for all European countries.

Dan, you again fail to intepretate my message. If you want a fixed definition of left and right, you'll find that in the links I gave you. If you apply that to US politics you'll indeed see that both the liberals and the republicans are on the RIGHT. (hence the remark that there is no significant left wing in the US)

OTOH, you'll have to be aware that the definitions you read from the dutch parlement are not relative to the US ones. Again hence my remark that what you consider left (liberals are only left in relative US terms, but according to the fixed definition, see the links, they both are right) actually is right in other countries.

In my eyes when applying the model of fixing left and right the european model is more close to it than the US model.

>What you also seem to forget is that within the two major parties in the US is a wide variety of political stripes. Unlike the European parlimentary model, both parties here have to appeal to a wide variety of voters. So, under the Democrat umbrella, you have people like my father-in-law (socially and fiscally conservative, but a lifelong union member and therefore a sworn Democrat) and my mother (Sierra Club member, a "social democrat" if we had such a party here), as well as a lot of ultra-liberals. Under the Republican umbrella, you have people like myself (generally conservative) and the Moral Majority (whom I detest).

That even applies to dutch politics as well. But that is not the point. The party on the whole has a position regardless of the internal political stripes.

>By your own admission, the VVD is center-right. Just because you vote VVD, does that make you a right-winger?

No, the VVD is right wing. CDA is center-right. LPF is even more to the right, however the latest polls indicate that this party will dissapear from the political arena at the next election. For good reason. Though Pim fortuyn had an interesting campaign and the party was promising, the death of pim scattered the party into one big internal struggle.

>Not according to any of the models, nor according to any of the information you've presented. Nor according to the other Europeans I know.

You're plain wrong here, misinformed. VVD is right, in fact the most significant right party, by any means of dutch politics. You'd better read http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/redefining_the_political_spectru.htm.

>This is the trap of generalization. You may consider yourself to be to the right within the Dutch political arena. But how would you be classified within the German one?

About the same, as for most western european countries. They have very close bands as well as many european parties. You better inform yourself better than trying to debunk me on this one. You're the one who is lost in european politics, not me. Generally the german politics have been left centered compared to the dutch. That changed a few months ago with merkel as bonds-kanselier. The CDU is the political cousin of the CDA, which is center right to right positioned.

>Or the Polish one? A German friend of mine would consider you to be a raging Socialist. How would any members of the hard right in the Netherlands label you? To categorically say that "left is right" is just plain wrong.

The only hard right is religious right. I don't give a damn about what they think of me. There is nothing of significance to the right of the VVD. I'm not sure why you keep hammering on poland as they are not an economical force. To be honest, I don not know much about polish politics other than the time of lech walensa, but they can't be too much on the right as it would harm their position in the EU. Poland has much to win in europe and therefor can't be too much on the right side.

Socialist? You clearly don't know what you're talking about do you?? And I have no idea why you mean with "left is right" and are clearly trying to take my words out of context. What I said is plain and simple. What is left (liberals) in the US still is considered right in most other countries.

Dan, You're not even close in describing european politics. If you don't know how dutch politics relate to european politics then don't try to guess things. You'll guess wrong. You even don't take the time to read the message. You come up with some summary of the dutch parties, half reading it, not even note correctly where the VVD stands, and draw wild conclusions that are totally off base. Then you start to rage about things that are simply incorrect.

Try harder...