You said it yourself : "Just to clarify, Isreal has been a state for 58 years, give or take months. Since that very day the Palestinians, and Arabs generally, had an axe to grind."

Israel has the right to defend itself. These attacks have started from Arab fronts since the very beginning. They stop attacking Israel and peace ensues. It would've been this way from the beginning had Egypt, Jordan, Syria et all not decided that the only good Zionist is a dead Zionist.

As to your rhetoric arguement. We don't take athletes seriously because they are playing games, not bombing people. Should we ignore KKK members who want to "kill them ni***rs" because they're just words? Of course not, and they aren't nearly as well armed as Hezbollah, Hammas, Syria and Iran.

San Francisco July 13,2006 "Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea!"
http://zombietime.com/israeli_consulate_protest_july_13_2006/

It's not just rhetoric, It's a rallying cry. It's also the stated goal of Hammas.

>>Just to clarify, Israel was in Lebanon for 18 years, Gaza and the West Bank for 39, not 58. Unless, of course, you consider the entire state of Israel to be occupied territory.
>
>Just to clarify, Isreal has been a state for 58 years, give or take months.
>Since that very day the Palestinians, and Arabs generally, had an axe to grind.
>Israel's policy of more than 'an eye for an eye...' has been practised since that day.
>
>In those 58 years the Palestinians have been so grossly denigrated/emasculated that they have lost all hope of ever living like normal human beings. It is that condition that Israel's 58 years of sanctioned terrorism has reaped.
>
>That any group spouts 'Israel must be destroyed' or 'Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth' is simply rhetoric - the only weapon left in their arsenal - aimed at both preserving their leadership and getting some rise out of desperate people.
>I've heard football player scream 'we're going to wipe them off the face of the earth' and similar. I've seen wrestlers proclaim the same. Do the other teams refuse to play when those words are uttered?... of course not, because they're just words.
>
>Do you think that if Hamas was to meet, with other parties present, with Israeli leaders they would being bomb vests to kill the Israelis? And if they did, do you think for a moment they'd succeed?
>This 'they want us annililated so we won't talk to them' is schoolyard stupidity that has cost thousands of lives and will cost thousands more unless someone smartens up.
>Desperate peoples only get more desperate as the dregs of their lives are further shattered, not more submissive.
>
>The U.S., as the leader of the free world, should be ashamed of itself for supporting Israel in this conflict. I'm convinced, myself, that there are other issues at play here and I believe they involve at least provokation to draw Iran into the mix.
>
>ends here... read no further < s >
>>
>>>Geez, Chris, it would be helpful if you took the CONTEXT of what I said as a whole and not pick independent sentences where preceding words matter. but anyway...
>>>
>>>>>I'm talking about the whole lot of them - Israelis, Palestinians, Lebanese.
>>>>>Why do the Israelis keep repeating the same kinds of antics over and over and over again when it hasn't stopped anything? Their wall seems to have had some effect, but the levelling of home of parents of suicide bombers, the targetted assassinations of PLO or Hamas or Hezbollah leaders, the rocketing of cars on crowded streets hasn't abated the things they want to stop. What's the definition of crazy again?!?!
>>>>
>>>>I don't know why Israel levels the homes of the parents of suicide bombers. However, I believe that is done in Gaza, while I would like to limit this debate to the current conflict in Lebanon if possible.
>>>
>>>The point is that Isreal has been doing terror tactics for 58 years and it hasn't changed the motivations of Palestinians or Hezbollah folks 1 iota. Time for new tactics!
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Abated has multiple meanings, but one of them is to reduce. To answer that question, yes, I believe Israel's tactics will reduce Hezbollah's ability to kill Israelis.
>>>
>>>Well the STUPIDEST thing I've heard in a long while is President Bush, Secretary Rice, spokesman Snow and Ambassador Bolton all repeating the mantra "sustainable cease-fire". How stupid is that?????
>>>My guess is that it's code for 'until we kill the leader of Hezbollah'.
>>>By your own admission the trouble will only abate, not end. So what does "sustainable cease-fire" mean exactly???
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Unless someone can produce some evidence otherwise, everything I have read has indicated that Hezbollah is intent on the destruction of Israel.
>>>
>>>That seems to be their position. But they (Hezbollah) cannot be blown into oblivion and attempts to do so only results in MORE DEAD PEOPLE. So the idea is to TALK with them, to learn the basis for their position and to remove those things that have them taking that position. 58 years of attacking them has achieved exactly NOTHING. Time to try some new tactics.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>When a farmer sows corn he gets corn. When he sows oats he gets oats. But the same can't be said about sowing democracy. Like it or not, something motivated the Palestinians to ELECT Hamas as their government. Like it or not, something motivated the Lebanese people to ELECT 25% of their representatives from Hezbollah. Declaring those organizations as terrorist and so dealing with them as terrorists may feel good from one side, but what does it actually do to solve the problems???? All it does, best I can see, is to make those who ELECTED them even more impotent. When people feel they're in a hopeless situation they do things you and I can't imagine. And they keep doing it over and over because they have no other options to exercise.
>>>>
>>>>You seem to be arguing that labeling Hezbollah as terrorists is somehow wrong. Is that your contention? My definition of terrorism is a deliberately targeting civilians. Do you disagree?
>>>
>>>I agree that terrorists deliberately target civilians to wreak havoc and fear.
>>>But I also am of the opinion that using precision guided rockets to immobilize/blow-up cars on busy streets is terrorism. Just because a weapon is precision-guided doesn't mean it cannot be used wrongly.
>>>Now Hezbollah is a troublesome case because they apparently have a political wing, an humanitarian wing and a 'military' (i.e. terrorist) wing, and they have ingratiated enough people in Lebanon to get themselves 25% of the seats in their 'congress'. I assume you're aware that the IRA also had a political wing and that they had members elected too. You didn't see Britain bombing Northern Ireland to root out the IRA. But what you did eventually see - despited the IRA's avowed objective to rid Norther Ireland of the Brits - is that the parties sat down and TALKED. And look at where things are today with them. The same HAS TO HAPPEN with Israel and its enemies. There is NO OTHER WAY.
>>>Getting back on track. Israel admits that Hezbollah has entrenched itself in civilian neighbourhoods. That being the case, as well as the history I mentioned earlier, Israel is operating exactly like an other terrorist organization by bombing civilian targets. Roads, fuel depots, bridges, communications towers, buildings, mosques etc are not military targets. Does the fact that Israel uses precision-guided bombs and rockets make these actions non-terrorist? I don't think so.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Their situation isn't hopeless. Lebanon was doing better after the Syrians left, following the assassination of one of Lebanon's most popular political figures, allegedly by Syria. Things were going well apparently, until Hezbollah decided to cross the Israeli border, kill Israeli soldiers, and kidnap two others.
>>>
>>>Lebanon was doing fine well before the Syrians left, though Syria's departure was undoubtedly helpful too. On the other hand, I do ask myself what Israel's response would have been if Syria was still there. But anyway... Hezbollah crossed the border and kidnapped 2 soldiers and the Israeli response - their same knee-jerk response as always - has resulted in 35 DEAD Israelis and 350+ dead Lebanese. How do the Israeli leaders get away with making decisions of such horrific consequence?????????
>>>Israel had apparently been living with intermittent rocketings for years froom Lebanon. Apparently the poor quality totally unguided rockets fell almost exclusively in uninhabited places. Suddenly we have this urgent need to terrorize the Lebanese?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>What is Isreal to do?????? Not what they're doing, that's for sure. They've done their standard knee-jerk reaction that has been proven over and over again to do nothing towards solving the problem. They now have 35 of their own DEAD and 350+ Lebanese or visitors there DEAD. Their primitive "solution" has stirred the blood of their citizens, but it's also stirred up the whole region yet again. Stirring has been the option of choice for 58 years and it hasn't come close to bringing an end to the horrors.
>>>>
>>>>No, it hasn't ended, but after all those years of defeating their enemies, 2 of them, Egypt and Jordan, decided it was a hell of a lot better to live in peace with Israel.
>>>
>>>There is positively no comparison between Egypt/Jordan and the Palestinians or the Lebanese. None whatsoever. Egyptians and Jordanians were not third-class citizens in their own land for 58 years, being ground frther and further into desperation. SUre, Israel left Lebanon a few years ago, but by then they had bred a healthy opposition called Hezbollah.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The U.S. got attacked on 9/11. To use that as pretense to war with and occupy Iraq is the same kind of primitive thinking. Mankind should be well past that by now, but at the rate we're going the 21st century will set a new record for conflicts in a century.
>>>>
>>>>I am not sure why you brought Iraq into the debate. If you want to talk about al-Qaida attacking the U.S. on 9/11, it would probably be more beneficial to talk about the world's response to al-Qaida, the Taliban, and Afghanistan.
>>>That's precisely why I brought Iraq into this - because Afghanistan was a world-supported "response" while Iraq was a response (non-response, as there was nothing to 'respond' to) of a knee-jerk nature just like Israel's response to Hezbollah. Fulfilling some unstated need in a way that only begets disdain from the rest of the world.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Bombing places and killing/maiming people hasn't worked for 58 years for Israel and its not about to start working now. It should be obvious in fact that 58 years after the fact the problems are far more entrenched now than ever before.
>>>>
>>>>Actually it did with Egypy and Jordan. Those 2 countries decided that attacking Israel wasn't such a good idea anymore.
>>>
>>>Not applicable. See above. a red-herring that adds nothing to the argument.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The first thing Israel has to do is find some other technique to deal with these problems. Stop using what really does amount to terrorist tactics disguised as self-defense. Show themselves to be "bigger" than their opponents. Israel has had 98%+ of the world in their corner, but how long can that last with their indiscriminate bombings and rocketings into crowded streets? [that they say they are 'targetting' specific spots is obviously just words to placate their supporters]
>>>>
>>>>Terrorist tactics? Please explain. Indiscriminate bombings? Please explain. As I understand it, that's where Hezbollah is. Hiding in civilian areas, such as refugee camps.
>>>
>>>I explained it in my first, and elaborated further above. But for completeness (geez, I hate typing)...
>>>Israel fires rockets from helicopters into crowded streets in Gaza to kill assumed occupants (terrorist leaders) of cars and they manage to kill/main bystanders in the process. Israel demolishes the homes of the parents of suicide bombers, warning folks first to leave but proceeding even if they don't. Israel knows that Hezbollah has entrenched itself in civilian areas yet it proceeds to bomb those areas anyway. Just because they are using precision-guided weapons doesn't mean that theirs are not "indiscriminate" bombings. So far they killed only 350 compared to Hezbollah's huge 35. Bombing ANY civilian area is a terrorist act regardless the alleged objectives. Israel has employed terrorist tactics for 58 years and it has not solved the Palestinian issue, but rather has only exacerbated it. Time to change tactics.
>>>>
>>>>>You want my alternative, so here it is - TALK. Talk to Hezbollah leaders and Hamas leaders. Find the real roots of their rhetoric and actions and solve those problems. Those leaders have to talk loud and proud to keep the support of their followers. You saw President Bush feel that urge himself several time in the last 5+ years.
>>>>
>>>>Talk? These groups have made it quite clear they want Israel wiped off the face of the map. Since Israel was created, many of its neighbors have expressed just that desire. Fortunately, a couple of them have decided just how foolish that is.
>>>Again, Egypt and Jordan are different situations entirely. "Wiping Israel off the face of the map" is all bluster aimed at shoring up their support. The PLO once wanted Israel wiped out too, and that changed by talking.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>What exactly is there to talk about? Do you believe that talking solves all problems?
>>>Yes, I believe talking solves MOST problem. It wouldn't have prevented World War II, but probably most wars since then.
>>>Think about it. There's one of two things that will happen. Either the Palestinians will be holocausted out of existence or they will ultimately sit down and talk things through. After 58 years, there's no other option. I can't see Israel perpetrating anything like a holocaust, so the alternative is to talk. So one starts out with the position that Israel has to be wiped from the map. That's not a legitimate reason not to talk because it's only WORDS. And those words have some basis for their repetition beyond inciting continued support for the utterers. After 58 years of being further and further denigrated there is no further denigration possible. Israel has put those people as low as they can go without outright killing them. But given just a tad of HOPE for a BETTER FUTURE that can be changed. But to stand back and state that there will be no talking until they first declare Israel's right to exist WHEN ALL THOSE PEOPLE HAVE LEFT IS WORDS OF DEFIANCE AS THEIR WEAPON is to ask the
>>>impossible. So it is incumbent on Israel to be big enough to face the rhetoric head on and get past it. 58 years of doing otherwise hasn't worked. It's time for a change in tactics.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Once their real motivations are known they can be addressed.
>>>>
>>>>Their real motivations have been quite clear. If you are at all in doubt about what Hezbollah wants to accomplish, please explain.
>>>
>>>Hezbollah has to state that objective to keep its support. Support from downtrodden people who have no weapons other than words. You cannot get them to change their position before talking, so it's stupid to demand that. Just get talking and that will go away.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>There is no way that people who feel subjugated and hopeless are going to succumb to the tactics of 58 years and that is clear.
>>>>
>>>>Which is why it's nice to see a couple of them living quite peacefully with Israel.
>>>
>>>No camparison and you know it. Egypt and Jordan have not been denigrated for 58 years. Get it?????
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>War is no solution to this problem, nor to 99% of other problems between countries.
>>>>
>>>>And yet the only solution you have proposed so far is to talk.
>>>
>>>Yes. Now I've told you my solution, so please tell me yours.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>War might get some extra Iraqi oil into U.S. cars for a few years, but if you count up the actual costs to achieve that you have to wonder at the real cost of a barrel of Iraqi oil over the next 25+ years! All that U.S. treasure spent and lives lost so that big oil can get their hands on Iraqi oil at MARKET PRICES when the actual cost of that oil is closer to $1000. per barrel. Make sense to you?
>>>>>
>>>>>And it sure looks like your President has Iran's oil in his sights too. I wonder how much that oil will turn out to be worth in real costs?!?!
>>>>
>>>>It's actually most of the world that is worried about Iran's nuclear capabilities, not just the U.S.
>>>
>>>Yes, but Iran has said it's ready to talk in response to the offer presented last month. Or has that escaped the news there? Or doesn't it matter because the real agenda is war anyway?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It's time that Israel's barbarity was stopped. It's time that the U.S.'s bellicose approach as changed.
>>>>>I know it's a great arrangement in terms of weapons sales and all, but the U.S. should be beyond that.
>>>>>Maybe when the making of weapons has been out-sourced to China the motivation will be different.
>>>>
>>>>Your posts continue with an anti-American bias. Would it be possible to discuss the current situation without throwing in all these non sequiturs?
>>>
>>>I think my posts on these issues are anti-war, and it is true that President Bush has been fostering war for oil so they do amount to anti-American POLICY. But I think there are more Americans who feel the same about your President's policies. Are they "anti-American" too. I am what they are, however you classify them.