Not just that. But the difficulty of maintaining individual insurance once your are diagnosed with something that sets off red flags back at insurance hq.

>One of the biggest problems with our system here in the states is obtaining insurance for pre-existing conditions. Pre-existing conditions are a MAJOR problem. In the European model of socialized medicine, that is not an issue.
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>
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>>>SNIP>
>>>>Quality of all care. You're talking about coverage, I'm speaking of care. There is a difference. I can get any treatment, test, specialist exam etc at anytime I choose. That is not true in other countries where single-payer systems are in place.
>>>
>>>Jake,
>>>
>>>I didn't read beyond here. But you're mixing apples and oranges (yet) again...
>>>
>>>Let's first agree that your statement is perfectly correct and accurate if you have the money to do what you want.
>>
>>This is also now true in Canada. Now you get to spend tax money on a broken system and when you get REALLY ill you get to pay for your treatment out-of-pocket at a private clinic, or wait for your turn, or die. I prefer the choices offered in the States.
>>
>>>But then let's look at it from the point-of-view of someone who is enrolled in a HMO or PPO, which I understand to be the majority of people who are insured. Suddenly you CANNOT go "get any treatment, test, specialist exam etc at anytime I choose" and if you do then it's on your own dime.
>>
>>You are incorrect. I was enrolled in an HMO until Jan 1 and never had to wait even 1 day for a test. I now am in a PPO. I have had 2 lab tests done since Jan 10. Both were covered, and I had only a $10 co-pay for the initial doctor's visit. In Canada I would be waiting for those tests an for somewhere around 7-10 weeks.
>>
>>All health costs are on our own dime. The refusal to accept that tax money is YOUR money defies logic. You are still paying whether the government acts as a middleman or not.
>>
>>>All this at a cost of thousands of dollars per year for insurance per family.
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>>It doesn't have to be thousands. Once again it's a matter of choice. You can choose from nothing all the way to super-comprehensive. Based on one's own health concerns the decision is different.
>>
>>>So while the "American system" does support your statement, it is actually applicable to a very small minority of the folks in America.
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>>There are many programs, charitable institutions, churches etc that help people to obtain tests, treatments and drugs on a daily basis. Do a quick google search. There are hundreds of national and international organizations and thousands of local ones. Not to mention all the pro-bono work.
>>
>>>Our single-payor system is getting BETTER as regards wait times. More and more provincial system are being changed to be either provide the critical care pronto or ship the people to where they can get the required treatment. I wonder how many of your HMOs would do it that way?
>>
>>SET SNARK ON
>>The impression of "getting better" seems to differ depending on which political party you belong to, and on who just won the election.
>>SET SNARK OFF
>>
>>I have read that the times are lessening, but that is due in part to more private clinics being involved in the system. Then there's the additional money that has been allocated. This is a cost increase. More tax money to health care means less for other programs.
>>
>>>You and many other Americans have been sold a bill of goods as regards how lousy a single-payor system is.
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>>You are living in the past, Canada is no longer single-payor, and your costs are still rising.
>>
>>America's system has problems, but single-payor is not the answer. We can already see the problems that arise from it.
>>
>>A better answer involves using free market principals. Here are a few to start with:
>>-allow greater use of pre-tax medical savings accounts (and make them multi-year)
>>-tax-deferred medical investment accounts (my family has been doing this for years, making them tax-deferred would be a wonderful way for others to participate)
>>-tax-deductions for new technology and research
>>-tort reform to prevent frivilous lawsuits (just requiring that class-actions be started by victims instead of lawyers would be a great start)
>>-fast-track FDA drug approval
>>
>>>It ain't perfect, but bankruptcy court is not going to be seeing me because my hospital bill cannot be paid.
>>
>>If you die while waiting for your turn to get treatment there will not be a bill to pay.
>>
>>Allow me to add another thought to the discussion. It is my responsibility to look after the health and well-being of my family and it is my responsibility to ensure that they have access to the best medical care available. A single-payor system is a direct threat to my ability to provide the best health care for my family. That is unacceptable.