I guess this is getting a bit off topic.

I've read a bit of Jeremy Rifkin (http://www.utne.com/cgi-bin/udt/im.display.printable?client.id=utne&story.id=11349) and he came to the following conclusion:

That difference is reflected in the American and European Dreams, which at their core are about two diametrically opposed ideas about freedom and security. For Americans, freedom has long been associated with autonomy. An autonomous person is not dependent on others or vulnerable to circumstances beyond his or her control. To be autonomous one needs to be propertied. The more wealth one amasses, the more independent one is in the world. One is free by becoming self-reliant and an island unto oneself. With wealth comes exclusivity, and with exclusivity comes security.

The new European Dream is based on different assumptions about what constitutes freedom and security. For Europeans, freedom is found not in autonomy but in embeddedness. To be free is to have access to many interdependent relationships. The more communities one has access to, the more options one has for living a full and meaningful life. It is inclusivity that brings security -- belonging, not belongings.

This is also being reflected in our health care: Trying to create health care where people are included into the provision of it as a basic right independed of material wealth.

Walter,


>I have read a number of articles indicating that medical care at European Hospitals for stroke or heart attack patients is very successful. This is not true in the United States. Hospitals do not have the trained personal or medications that European countries have.
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>Some will say, so what? Well, if you have a stroke or heart attack then this might get your attention!
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>>In holland there lots of medical checks during a humans lifetime. There is a proactive component of education, regulation and prevention of medical problems from both the government and the insurance companies.
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>>The difference is that it is more or less equal for everyone, regardless of your particular insruance.
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>>As for advanced: it is not in the techniques. I think in most cases the same or equal techniques are practised, but how easily accessible they are, and even people are reminded to do them. Above all, the people often even see the bills. They are directly send to the insurance company. I've never had to pull my wallet for any medical procedure or even prescription. The bills I get for GP visits are send to the ensurance company.
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>>The superiority is in the general availability, financial transparancy and ease of use. I'm well aware that those medical proceduresa re available in the US, but in most cases you have to ask for them and be aware. Up here there is a more proactive movement in prevention and early detection of medical problems. This is not a technical-medical issue, but more of governmental/insurance regulation.
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>>Walter,
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>>>That is no different than here in the states. Pap smears and pelvic exams are annual. Mammograms are annual. What to do in case of a stroke or heart attack is broadcast on tv. I see nothing different other than we get ours via insurance and yours is paid for via taxes. I am authorized bi-annually dental exams and cleanings and xrays. I also have additional coverage for dental repair. Many insurance companies cover chiropractic and even holistic medical treatments now as well. I was under the impression that you were claiming the preventive care and testing for diseases was advanced in Netherlands... Don't forget that those with a low income do qualify for medicaid (which includes vision) and we also have many free clinics (especially womens).
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>>>The typical medicaid requirements are:
>>>One of more of the following statements are
>>>true:
>>>You have children and a limited income.
>>>You receive or are eligible for Supplemental Security
>>>Income (SSI).
>>>You're a pregnant woman who meets income
>>>requirements. For example, a family of four making
>>>$23,225 a year or less qualifies.
>>>Your family's assets are less than $2,000.
>>>You receive adoption assistance or foster care assistance.
>>>
>>>Still, I agree that millions of Americans fall between the cracks when it comes to health care. They don't make enough to buy insurance and they aren't poor enough for medicaid. Most of these poor families will typically have at least 2 tvs, vcrs, dvd players, stereos, expensive clothes, an expensive car, so go figure?
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>>>>>SNIP
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>>>>>>On what do you base that ?? Cancer treatments here are done in a very timely manner and I certainly do not agree here. I would even go further. I think that our care to prevent cancer and detect cancer in a timely manner is far superiour to that one of the US. There is a lot to do over here in the prevention and detection of medical problems over here, something that to my knowledge is not the case in the US.
>>>>
>>>>Some examples:
>>>>- Women above a certain age are screened periodically for breast cancer and uterus cancer (does not have anything to do with insurance).
>>>>- Simple screenings done at your GP don't cost you a penny.
>>>>- Men called for screening for prostate cancer above the age of 50?
>>>>- Health organisations / government provide free tests for early detection of kidney problems.
>>>>- Every born baby in the Netherlands is screened on an increasing number of deceases quickly after birth.
>>>>- Every child goes throug an extensive vacinating program up to age 11 or so with the emphasys until the age of 5 to avoid certain deceases.
>>>>- There is a lot of information provided by our government how to handle and detect medical emergencies (e.g. a stroke). They get broadcasted by our media on a regular basis.
>>>>- Everywhere in the country there are courses to deliver first care (reanimation, etc). In every company at least one person must be able to deliver first emergency care. At large events at least a certain number of skilled first emergency care people should be arround.
>>>>- Insurance companies, now cover the use of healthy food products (like becel), and actually are getting more proactive in the prevention of medical problem, by stimulating a healthy way of life, food and medicine.
>>>>- Dental care is included in the basic package (though there was some catch I forgot), allowing a check every six months.
>>>>
>>>>All of the above has little or nothing to do with your insurance coverage (as oposed to the US). It is available for anyone. Some people do make use of it because out of religion, but the service is there. The covernment tries to educate people to prevent and recognise the most common medical problems as much as reasonable.
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>>>>Walter,
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>>>>>Can you provide examples of where Netherlands leads the U.S. in the prevention and detection of cancer? I really am interested because here in the U.S. cancer screening is pretty standard now... If Netherlands has some tests which the U.S. does not, I would bring my daughter there for testing in the future...
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>>>>>Here they are now going so far as to recommend annual blood tests, ct scans, mri, and ultrasound as a wholebody holistic prevention. There are so many screening tests to do it is amazing. Then there are the recent vaccines such as the HPV vaccine for teens. I figure by the time I do all that and add in the annual pap, mammogram, et al who knows what cancer I will have developed from the tests! They also test for nutritional imbalances, allergens, amino acids, vitamins, fatty acids, trace metals, pesticides, and other pollutants. Some insurance companies cover it but most still do not. It won't be long though...