I think your post defines the divide we now have in the US very well. My first question of those who define the war in Iraq as a necessary thing, is how much travelling do they do. It seems to be pattern that most who support the concept of pre-emptive strikes by the US do very little travelling. And have the attitude that this must be because we are the US and must protect ourselves.

Those who say otherwise are labelled as terrorist supporters. Those who speak otherwise can not be seen by others as they are. I think they are the true patriots, who love the US, but also want to speak up about the failings. How can the US try to "impose democracy" on Iraq when so much has gone wrong over the last several years. Especially with our electronic voting.

I'm currently reading a book that describes situations that have occurred around the globe, with the blessing of, or at least a blind eye by the US govt. I just finished the chapter on S. Korea. There were many atrocities there committed by dictators under the eye of our govt. You never hear about these of course. But we always hear about the attrocities committed by the Russians when they wanted to enforce their rule in the Eastern Bloc countries. Or what happened in Tienemen sq in China.

But events in S. Korea were allowed to procede because the dictator was anti-communist. Something that appears to be the only bullet point that interested our govt during the cold war.

Similar events happened in Indonesia. I've spoken to a co-worker, who's from there about this. He's not so quick to implicate the US govt. But from my reading, it had to be obvious to our govt that thousands of civilians were being slaughtered by Indonesian military enforcement squads.

Our govt is by no means perfect. And it makes the situation worse when supposed US patriots thump their chest at others.


>Tore,
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>You and I have spoken about this very thing in Arizona last year. I am in full agreement with your observation about many Americans, that they have an attitude of superiority that is not founded on facts. I was one of those Americans until a number of years ago. In my early schooling I was taught over and over again that the USA was the land of the free adn that it was the most free country in the world. I was told by my teachers that the USA was far ahead of the rest of the world in all areas including science, government, wealth, freedom, and you name it.
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>It wasn't until I actually traveled to other countries that I began to see that these were not facts but were opinions. In visiting otehr countries I was able to see the facts, that the USA is a great country but it is certainly not the only great country. I love my country aand I consider myself a patriot. I served in the military and support my local government and am active in my community. But I also respect the other countries in this world and realize that none of them are perfect. I have seen things in other countries that work much better than the in the USA and I have seen some things that are better in the USA than in other countries.
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>The attitudes that you regile in your post are the very attitudes that bore the term "Ugly American" many years ago. The attitude that the USA does everything the "right" way and the rest of the world is wrong. One of the most interesting things I have learned from visiting other countries is the level of respect that there is in one country for the others wihtout any sort of competition going on.
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>I recall one of the first times I truly realized how young the USA is compared ot the rest of the world. I was in Germany and my host had taken me to visit a Roman castle outside of Frankfurt. As we approached I notice the corner stone on the castle which read 900. I though to myself, wow, in USA we think a building is old if it says 1700 on it and here we are off by only 1,000 years.
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>I really prefer to celebrate the richness of diversity we have in our world and not to compare countries for which one is "better".
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>Glad your vacation was good and sorry to hear you were ill after it.