>Okay, I've sort of stayed out of this up until now as I am inclined to defer when the point of contention is technical. But ...

>I think there is an element of truth in what you say, Walter, but I would suggest there is something else at work here - which is also cultural. There is a part of American culture which tends to put a lot of responsiblity on the individual rather than the group. and to seek solutions at a personal level rather than a writing of wrongs ouf of a sense of entitlement.

Ohh, I think you're absolutely right in that. That of course, is a part of the american dream.

>I am not saying this feeling is universal here, and certainly many Americans look first to The Government or to some other collective entity for solutions to things that they regard as contrary to their own interests. And there is certainly a tendancy among some to think of themselves first as members of a group (especially when it benefits them to do so) and thereby seek benefits or absolution from responsibility.

>And there are those of us who feel that it demeans an individual to think of him/her first as members of a group or ... class. < s >

>I think the trend in post-Club of Rome Europe is to seek safety and protection in larger entities - not just the local welfare state but now in a "greater" state administered by bureaucrats in Brussels. Well, good luck with it. I suppose it is better than the European model from 1914 to 1945 but I do not see it as ultimately successful in creating a dynamic culture. Holland certainly had got along quite well without it ( barring unwelcome German tourists )

Here I think you have to be very carefull in your analysis and I certainly don't agree with yours. It is true that in europe we seek protection in larger entities as you say, you can read Jeremy Rifkin for an analysis of that (Google on "European dream jeremy rifkin"). As for holland.. We have been one of the driving forces behind the process of forming an european government from the beginning and before drawing any conclusions you must analyse what has been achieved in a relative short time. A lot has changed in that last two decades or so. The biggest of all of course is the introduction of the euro (The are more euros going arrouund than US dollars), but also open trade within the EU, traveling accross europe without lining up at borders. Huge trade improvements. Everyone from within the EU can without a problem work within the EU anywhere. This all is an achievement of Brussels. OF course there is enough to complain about (esspecially little things), there have been major accomplishments. We do realise that as individual countries, europe could not be a compatitor to the US and the rising east, therefore we must create a UNITED STATES OF EUROPE to be an economical force. Esspecially the nothern and western european coutries are doing very well economical have at least an internal economy as strong as the US. The eastern countries are relative new to the EU (often former sovjet satelites) are do have to do a lot of catch-up but are developping quickly.

>I offer all this ranting only as context in which to suggest that generalizations about American attitudes and interpretations of why more NAs have not signed the petition may be painting with too broad a brush. ( BTW, I have signed it, in solidarity with my friends, but without a great deal of hope in its practical value )

I don't believe either this will have an inmediate impact on matters. However, it might serve some other purposes as well. At least with this effort as a cummunity we get a picture of how we are distributed. Though I did know that there was something like a spanish VFP group, I never thought it was that big.

That site could serve me some commercial benefits as well, as I can track down developpers by country and having a commercial software package that has the potiential to be the market leader in its field it might be of interest to me. You can also think of collective campains to achieve little things. For example whenever a irritating bug shows up later down the pipeline and Microsoft does not feel obligated to respond (happened in the past). Building and sustaining community is important to us. If I remember correctly, Steven Black asked for a donation to sustain the fox.wikis.com as couple of years ago to keep it up and running. I can see something simular happening in the future, maybe even for supporting a new small company that wants to port VFP9 to the .NET platform.

So no, I don't think it serves no purpose. In fact, I think it is important to any VFP developer to raise his voice.

>Maybe we just understand better how to predict the likely behavior of the folks in Redmond. And perhaps their behavior is indeed very culturally American. But then, so is much that has shaped our profession - and have included a great deal of its successes.

See, above. This is not only about the guys in redmond.

>( as the to your observations about the Russian space program - that is just silly. By those standards we should look with amazement as North Korea's successes in developing a bomb with "limited resources". Russia's success with Sputnik may be a credit to Russian intellectual achievement but it was certainly at the expense of the Russian people. It was, however, an example of how a centrally managed economy misdirected resources )

I don't see the connection between technical achievements and the well being of its citizens. The russian space program was highly suscessfull in its early days. It was not until the appollo project until the US outperformed the russians. Most milestones up to then have been set by the russians. Even after the collapse of the sovject union, their space station was still orbiting the earth and still keeps impressive records of longest stays in space. It was a shame, it was beyond repair and had to be sacrificed. However, it opened up the door for the buildup of the international space station.

>Cultures are rather complex, as I am sure you know, and when I see intelligent Europeans perhaps overstate their understanding of a culture as diverse of my own, I just want to offer a gentle counter-balance.

You're welcome. In fact I agree with much of what you're saying here, except of your conclusions (as opposed to analysis) of the european society.

wALTER,