Excellent post. Thanks (again).


>I do not confuse these practices with Islam any more than I confuse burning heretics with Christianity. I also know that at various times in history it has been very dangerous for moderate and learned believers to speak out in defense of their faith for fear of being persecuted by the "more righteous" That has often been true in Christianity, but since today most "Christian" nations are legally secular and heresy is seldom punished, the situation today is a little more sensitive both for the ulema and for those who would speak of Islam. Like Europe in the 16th Century, it is dangerous to speak freely in matters of faith.
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>But I believe there is a danger of romaticising barbarism - whether it is the thug posturing of American hip-hop culture (based on lack of values) or beheading hostages on the internet (based on the distortion of a Great Truth).
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>I understand warfare and fighting for a cause, and I understand that honorable men may see the world differently, but the car bombs in Baghdad, the genocide in Darfur, or an atrocity like 911 is not a righteous struggle but the thrashing of a nihilistic death-cult.
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>I understand there is often an attempt to equate American military power with such actions, but think about it - if our goal were to see how many Iraqis or anyone else we could kill, don't you think we could kill a lot more a lot faster? I don't think there has ever been so much power in human history that was so self-restrained. ( though I have to admit I can think of many cases where even more restraint would have been a good idea )
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>As to the Bekaa, I was there before Hezbollah and before the "civil war" and it was a rather nice place. I liked The Lebanon, and admired the unique position of Beirut in the Middle East. I always thought confessionalism was a tricky (meaning difficult) way to run a country, but until the Palestinians and Syrians decided to take the place over it was working.
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>As to any ideas of "racial superiority" which you seem to think I am propounding please read what I wrote. I specifically believe the problem is not at all racial but cultural. Very very important distinction. I specifically do NOT believe in racial superiority of any kind. i believe that some cultures have evolved in a more positive direction than others.
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>I have not at all meant for my posts to be inflamatory, and I certainly don't mean them to show any disrespect for very diverse cultures. I do have a problem with cultural ideas that involve a belief that God has spoken only to them and anything they do is justified by divine sanction. Truly a "Crusader" mentality - and a Jihadi mentality, and the very mentality that drives the Ultra-Orthodox settlers to believe they have more rights than non-Jews to a land they think was given them by God. Millenial ideas do not lead to compromise or solution. I think there is danger when any group believes it has a monopoly on ultimate truth.
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>I really think you may misunderstand ( or I may have misrepresented ) my feelings on a lot of this.
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>I believe in cultural evolution and I don't think going back to the 12th century is a step forward - whether in Christian or Muslim culture. The point I was making about some cultures being superior to other was addressed to the idea that there are still vestiges of older cultures which are still very strong and they are particularly dangerous when they gain any kind of political power.
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>>Those things do exist, but stats will not rectify it as way of life
>>or 'mainstream' in muslim world. Far away from that. You could be talking about secluded, poor and primitive communities in some countries, mostly in regions hard to control by governments, but defenetely not in let say in Dubai, or in Beirut, or in Alexandria etc. Way you present it, someone who can hardly point to say ... Australia on a world map, might conclude very funny things. Now that kind of *funny* conclusions ARE mainstream in happy Bbq flipping US suburbs.
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>>>Western culture certainly has its own list of horrors and any legal permission or sanction of slavery, racial discrimination, homophobia, repression based on gender etc is to be condemned.
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>>Ditto.
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>>>
>>>Perhaps my point doens't strike home if you have not been exposed to an American liberal arts education in an environment when Political Correctness insisted one not make value judgements about other cultures but consider all cultures equally valid - whatever atrocities they have institutionalized as 'proper' behavior. So a 'glass ceiling' making it difficult for women to advance to the highest corporate levels in the American workplace are considered equivalent to Saudi treatment of women or Somali or Yemeni tribesmen performing genital mutilation.
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>>Desribed liberal art education is right on money. People ARE equal. People
>>constitute countries, and countries belonging to region or religion are
>>worlds we are talking about here. Countries just like People are different.
>>Some could be rich some can be poore, some can be clean some can be dirty. But you can't find kosher philosophical or political standpoint treating them anything but equal.
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>>>Opposing particular policies to redress historical grievances earn >comparisons to Hitler and cries of 'holocaust'.
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>>We can talk about Darfur but that's about it. If there was no
>>Iraq/Afganitsan they might hv been helped better but now ...
>>
>>>
>>>Pornography, a lot of violence, homelessness ( which is very often the product of 'freedom' from forced instiutionalization of the mentally ill and chronically addicted ) are indeed terrible but they are side effects of freedom, not what the society has decided are worthy social goals.
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>>Or freedom from morals, real chance in life, free education, proper healt care or police enforcement all of them being worthy social goals.
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>Okay, and where have these goals been acheived - Cyprus? The Balkans?
>The Middle East? I understand we have not acheived the ideal society, but I think that never before in human history has more prosperity been coupled with more freedom than in societies than today are secular, democratic and trace their philosophical roots to the Enlightenment. Still a long way to go, but moving - with many missteps - in the right direction.
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>>>Barbarism in the name of rigtheousness has certainly existed in the history of the west but our current culture at least recognizes this is not the ideal but rather a problem to be solved.
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>>Very recent history and yes, world problem to be solved.
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>>>
>>>BTW, this is not to single out Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu or Christian cultures - I've lived and worked in all of those to where I feel comfortable seeing the nuances within them. I don't feel 'tricked' by news stories but rather rely on first-hand experience in the cultures in question. But within all of those cultures there are elements of thinking which frame barbaric behavior in terms of righteous acts.
>>>I place honor killing in Pakistan at the same level of personal barbarism as dragging a gay teenager behind a truck in Texas. Whatever portion of the local culture supports such acts as 'correct' are barbarians.
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>>I don't know; I hv read in a past few of y ) our very flammatory posts
>>regarding middle east and now this one. So now I am kind of confused what liberal art education have to do with your passion to clean up Bekaa waley, and weather you were talking about Muslims, Buddists or Chineese.
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>Notice that the acts of barbarism I am citing include specifically American phenomena ( hiphop thug culture, gay bashing ) as well as "honor" killing and genital mutilation that are more common in less-changed tribal cultures.
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>( Buddhist cultures, by the way, are certainly less prone to atrocity, but they have their own philosophical issues that permit a great deal of human suffering with a great drive to correct it )
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>>But then again, when someone talks about racial superiority (see below) then
>>very few things can add up afterwards.
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>>Peace :)
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>>>
>>>>>>http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3142288&page=1
>>>>>
>>>>>So much for cultural relativism. Suttee, clitoridectomy, honor killings, bride burning, gay-bashing and wilding are pretty good arguements for the idea that some cultures, while imperfect, are, in fact, superior to others.