>It is not a matter of your right to question. Of course you can question anything you like. but I don't hear any alternative explanations coming from you that make more sense. It is like argueing with those who deny the Holocaust happened, claim the Earth is flat or that it was created in 7 days 4,600 years ago. There is just no evidence that will satisfy you. We saw them fall down and you are saying you find it hard to believe they fell down as millions of people saw them fall down without offering any alternative explanation. You doubt a plane hit the Pentagon but offer no explanation of how the big hole got there or what happened to the plane that is otherwise unaccounted for or why hundreds of people pulling bodies out the Pentagon wreckage were tripping over parts of a 747 to do it.
>
>Do you see why I find it difficult to take you and your doubts seriously? I understand questioning official explanations of anything. But this is like doubting reports of Hurricane Katrina saying "Oh, I doubt a storm could be that bad."
>
>You doubt "the way" they fell. OK, so you think they did not fall because planes loaded with huge amounts of highly volatile aviation fuel hit them. So you must assume explosive from another source destroyed the buildings at the exact moment the planes hit - and then they fell exactly as everyone saw them fall. ( and that the explosives that really made them fall were never heard, seen to do damage or detected afterward. )
>
>?????????????????

Everything is in that warehouse in Nevada.

>
>
>
>
>>>The planes hit. People saw them hit. The buildings fell. People saw them fall. People died in great numbers. That is very very real to us. We do not consider this a debating point.
>>>
>>>As to preventing military interventions, I have a word of advice for our enemies - behave. If the American people ever really do believe you can do us serious harm, you will find what has happened so far is very mild. You have only survived as long as you have because so many of our people really don't want to believe such evil exists. They want to warm themselves in the comforting fiction that "people are really the same everywhere" and the we can reason with those who would do such things. But many of us know this to be false and are willing to do what needs to be done. There will be justice, however long it takes.
>>>
>>>And as to the events of 911 - I think you're right. there really is no point in discussing this further. You are referring to events witnessed by so many people and calling them theories ( and never even asking yourself questions like "If that wasn't a plane that hit the Pentagon what happened to the plane everyone with a tiny grip on sanity thought hit the pentagon and hundreds of people at the Pentagon saw hit the Pentagon. You ask questions as if there is some serious debate on these things. I find it very hard to continue to consider your opinion of interest.
>>>
>>>Fortunately, people who actually do have a grip on reality will protect the loonies who believe internet huxters, Michael Moore and Thierry Meyssan.
>>
>>Fine Charles :)
>>FYI I never took Michael Moore movie way to seriosely and never read
>>Thiery Mayssan. I do however reserve right to question what ever does not sound right, or make sence to me.
>>Sorry to tell you, but official story as for buildings fall still makes no sence not so ever. Of course everybody saw planes hitting towers, but how
>>does this relate to my question about *way* they have fallen ??
>>
>>I would expect you as true American to be seeking for truth and
>>outdo me in questions about this sad event, to the ratio of 1:1000.
>>Instead you offer me to buy prety lame old totalitarian principle of denying right to question/doubt and accept official line as true by default.
>>[ Never mind loonie remark, will refund you on this :) ]
>>
>>Well you found wrong door to knock on in this case, I lived trough that 'framework' , been against it all my life.
>>Here is one old CommParty tune from 1946 for your collection;
>>I used to sing it along while marching as little boyscout with red scarf arround my neck back in early 70ies :)
>>
>>(pretext: M.Tito, Comm.Party, Revolution etc)
>>... Who ever dare to differ, is lying and belittling, and will have to feel our fist ...
>>
>>... Ko drukcije kaze, klevece i laze, Nasu ce osetit' pest. ...
>>
>>
>>I would not try to debate this back in 2002 let say, but now
>>after 5-6 years of a time difference I wld expect people debating/demanding more answers.
>>And I am taking about internet quarrel between hardheaded me and you, but about Larry King vs DickC kind of debates.
>>
>>Or it will have to take 30 years of 'War on terror' and against 'Axis Of Evil' for things to be analysed/discussed more openly.
>>
>>Now your 'refund'
>>
>>Man, I even like some of the things you write, but when it comes to
>>politics, I really believe you should try to come down little bit.
>>What you write sounds so parranoid, dangerous and believe me in many
>>ways so *Bolsevic* in it's essence that you would not even believe it.
>>
>>I really really hope that hardline opinions like yours are exception rather then majority in US. Otherwise God help us all.
>>
>> * * *
>>
>>As I said to Tracy, this whole event (9/11) was boggling my mind quiet
>>a bit, and this is how it found it's way trough my posts.
>>Perhaps this IS still sensitive and hurtfull issue for meny people there4
>>I am gonna retire this thread from my side. If I in any way insulted or hurted anybody's feelings then I sincerely apologise for that.
>>
>>To those who share Charles opipinions, above reply apply to you as well.
>>I don't find it ok/cosher in any way shape or form.
>>
>>Peace(Instead)
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>We saw the plane sticking out of the pentagon on tv. Here is a security camera image:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/07/gen.pentagon.pictures/
>>>>>And this is interesting:
>>>>>http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ppfinal.html
>>>>>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>We seem to agree on quite a few things with one very big exception.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As an educated, intelligent person, do you really believe the on September 11 four planes, hijacked by 19 men, 15 of whome were Saudis, did not crash in the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania causing the damage that millions witnessed live on the streets of NY and on TV ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Or do you believe that this happened by was perpetrated by the Mossad to further the aims of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy as outlined in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Or that as the Imams taught in 1969 that since it says in the Qu'ran that the moon is a beam of light the socalled American "moon landing" was faked in Hollywood by the Jews in the movie industry?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I can understand that some French intellectuals might be so disconnected from reality that they could buy that Michael Moorish piece of nonsense that hit the best-seller list in France but I would expect a hard headed programmer who has seen lying done by a professional ( the late Slobodan ) would be sceptical of a lie even BinLaden is not trying to put forward. <s>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Just tell me, do you really doubt Al Quaeda - as it has claimed - was responsible for the attack ( as well as that of the first Trade Center bombing, the Cole, and the embassies in Kenya )?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>After surviving Milosevic,
>>>>>>I doubt by default everything that is widely proclaimed by mainstream media.
>>>>>>It is all bunch of lies, until positively (hard evidence) identified as truth :))
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now honestly;
>>>>>>All I can say is that as per your gravity line, what happened does not make any sence not so ever. (2 planes / 3 buildings, 11sec per tower)
>>>>>>I watched American scientist (will digg his name if you wish) on Greek national television, who prety clearly explained how/why this is not possible. On the other hand official story (pancake effect??) is complete bananas.
>>>>>>Add to it few other really disturbing questions about event that I hv read on internet like everybody else, and you will find me (as few more people in US) now being really really sceptic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As for Mosad involvement and all other 9/11 related conspiracy theories I can't offer much of an opinion. Whenever something unexplainable happen
>>>>>>theories are always abundant. My problem in this case is that every
>>>>>>even half baked conspiracy theory makes much more sence then official story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So I am like everybody else; Disturbed/in disbelieve, not convinced at all
>>>>>>in official story, while hoping that some truth will eventually hit the light of the day. With one difference, and that would be not being in natural state of denial since I am not American.
>>>>>>If I was, I wld hv been probably angry at everybody who said that this could hv been 'insider job' as in ; Government/military conspiracy, insurance scam, gold heist and what ever else is on the internet 'light reading' table.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So I answered your question, now here are mine
>>>>>>Q1: (bfwd from previous post)
>>>>>>How can 2 planes knock down 3 buildings at gravity speed, faster then if you dropped banana from last floor - directly to Isac Newton head ?
>>>>>>As an intelligent and educated person how do you explain that?
>>>>>>Does underlying flors 'qualify' at all for atmosphere resistance to falling object(s) ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As for OBL/Al-qaeda;
>>>>>>What I have problem swalowing, is the fact that bunch of enraged,
>>>>>>disoriented muslim radicals, lead by person who can barely walk (OBL) and directly from Afgan training camps high up in Afgan highlands/caves,
>>>>>>can manage to organise such massive attack that require real intelligence, coordination, technology, and foremost well embeded presence on US ground AND to be completely undetected upfront by mighty intelligence agencies of US gov.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Simple example;
>>>>>>If you try to arrange Airport Pickup being on top of Trodos mountains here
>>>>>>in Cyprus, down from Larnaca airport - you might very easily fail!
>>>>>>Cellphones do not work, there is no internet and nearest willage
>>>>>>is let say 30 kilometers. So unless you drive down like like a maniac (personal experience) chances of that person actually being picked
>>>>>>up by some taxi-service at 02.30am - are very slim!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So Q2:
>>>>>>How does complicated and coordinated action (attack) of this proportions can take place on US ground without any sattelite or ground sniff dogs noticing anything suspicios ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Q3:
>>>>>>Where is the plane that hit Pentagon ? We all saw explosion broadcasted
>>>>>>on the news, but no plain not so ever. This was immediately strange to me
>>>>>>back then, but then questionmark faded away as I was watching horrible pictures of falling towers and all the rest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And finally, most important Q4: (also bfwd from prev post)
>>>>>>Don't you think that mightiest military power of all times, should
>>>>>>do little bit more of a research before attacking array of countries,
>>>>>>and that better mechanisms safeguarding against devostating astray shots
>>>>>>should be put in place, rather then reacting 'human' at every
>>>>>>'catalysing' event of tmrw ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I don't believe anything will happen with Syria or Egypt. I don't believe
>>>>>>>>that wahhabi brotherhood is all that strong, and this is where I will disagree with you. I think that there is great degree of myth mounted up
>>>>>>>>on bunch of scattered radical lowlifes, and all that for daily political purposes of promoting yet another war.
>>>>>>>>Sir. Robin Cook tought so as well( before he suffered massive stroke while mounteneering) and as per him Al-Qaeda might very well be dBase3+ application!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The Muslim Brotherhood has numerous faces. I take Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya and Al Takfir Wal Hijra quite seriously. Mubareks security apparatus seems to believe they are real and Sadat - well, they made a believer out of him as well. I would shed no tears for al-Assad, to be sure, but I'm sure I wouldn't like those who would replace him any better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I do agree the actual terrorist cells are probably very few, but I am more concerned about a way of thinking that reminds me of the nihilism of the anarchists at the end of the 19th century. and remember, it was one of them who killed Archduke Ferdinand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And also, technology today makes it possible for very small numbers of people to wreak unimaginable suffering.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>As I might be distorted by holiwood about fact of life in US (or more by my wife who grew up in NY), I think that there is also great degree of distortion and wrong perception of Islam and middle east countries by ordinary Americans. And more over that this perception was maticulously/gradually built up, along last 10-15 years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I certainly agree that we have a very imperfect view of Islamic countries and cultures. And whenever there is conflict as there is now there is certainly a tendancy for even more exageration and misunderstanding. And I think this is made worse by the other problem I mentioned in that the voice of modern, intelligent, compassionate Islam often cannot be heard or is afraid to be heard. On a secular level this same problem bedeviled those in Nothern Ireland who wanted peace and the Palestinians and Israelis who wanted to work something out. I weep for the Palestinian people that at a key moment Arafat was able to set the agenda when what they needed was a Ghandi. The Israeli could have been guilted into a reasonable accomodation and a Palestian homeland in the 1950s. But an appeal to force and terror was exactly the wrong approach to take against the Jews only 20 years after WWII. The Palestinians and the Israelis and the Lebanese could have worked together to create a
>paradise
>>>>in
>>>>>>>the Levant. But the men of reason feared to speak out because of threats from the men with guns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Reaction afterwards as you said WAS 'human'. And that is exactly scarry part
>>>>>>>>of this story. Basically, it is enough to scare/steer people in right direction and k-boom - Highest/mightiest military power of all times will react without thinking twice!
>>>>>>>>In a month or so, far far away country was hit.
>>>>>>>>Analysis? Investigation ? Trial ? What if they did not do it ?
>>>>>>>>What is gonna happen after we remove Taliban ?
>>>>>>>>I don't believe thinking was really clear and analysis was really resourcefull.
>>>>>>>>WhereAs, Greatest power should imply greatest responsability,
>>>>>>>>and as you mentioned self restrain.
>>>>>>>>>( oops, there I go, off on another rant ... sorry, I'm just another frustrated American wondering what we are doing over there and what we are getting in return ... )