All good points. I do think the behavior described, unless the cop fabricated the account, would be construed by most men as odd, to say the least, if it wasn't cruising. The staring through the crack in the stall door ( preceding the recorded stuff ) and the fingers under the stall partition would certainly be unambiguous.

Of course there is a civil liberties issue involved in criminalizing soliciting a sex act ( and that even includes prostitution ) and if that is your point I agree. But if the behavior is legitimately criminal then I guess the only question is did he get a bum rap ( with apologies for the ambiguity for our British friends )

I think interesting, and sad, part is the difference between closeted an uncloseted cruising. I lived a long time in San Francisco, have a lot of gay friends, and spent a lot of time in the The Castro in the 70s. Cruising by gays who are out and comfortable with it is pretty much like Ft. Lauderdale on spring break and doesn't really require secret signals (unless you count the esoteric handkerchief code that caught everyone's imagination thirty years ago ) The stuff that goes on between people who don't want to admit they have homosexual urges is much more a throwback to the 50s. Picture J Edgar Hoover hitting on Rock Hudson <s>

I think somebody who was not a closet cruiser would have been completely indignent ( or amused and bewildered ) by being nabbed like that and would not in a million years have pleaded to anything.

My tolerance for libertine behavior of all kinds is probably a dozen notches higher than most peoples but when somebody is engaged in behavior that cries out for public exposure and humiliation ( Clinton, Craig, Foley, JFK ) there are grounds for concern.

Think about security clearance flutters. You can tell them pretty much anything - what makes them nervous is what you don't tell them - that's what somebody can use against you.

( by the way, I just finished a book I think you'd like a lot - License to Kill - Hired Guns in the War on Terror by Robert Young Pelton. Lots on Blackwater, Executive Outcomes etc but also a great chapter on Idema. )

As to doing it in public - Lady Astor declared she didn't care what people did as long as "they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses."


>Except that to my knowledge, Craig never had any sexual contact in the restroom. No money exchanged hands and no verbal offer or acceptance ocurred either. Initially I trusted the police 100% and assumed he was completely guilty. After listening to the tapes I'm not convinced any longer. I'm not convinced he's innocent either. What does concern me is that he was going to be prosecuted based on supposed signals (commonly known to homosexuals who frequent restrooms supposedly, but I don't know that and never heard of these 'signals') when no real offer or acceptance or act took place. He pled guilty to a lessor charge (disorderly conduct) to avoid the publicity. It's the fact that he was brought up on charges based on these 'signals' alone that bother me. That is scary...
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>Do signals exist between female prostitutes and their male customers? Can customers be brought up on charges for signals alone with no discussion of any act or money or any act taking place?
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>>>I think you define deviant behavior as that which is outside the norm. Studies have shown homosexuals make up about 3-5% of the population in males. The act that defines them is one that makes my stomach turn, and I think it is clearly deviant. The population is not necessarily growing more homosexual, but more tolerant of whatever people want to do (in the privacy of their own home). Having said that, I don't think most people want a senator who is having homosexual or heterosexual trysts in a restroom. That, to me is also deviant.
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>>Then you've answered your own point. His having a homosexual affair is not seen as being as bad as Craig doing it in a public washroom. That's why Craig is out and he is not.
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>>>>Maybe, but it's hard to tell from that. Of course, it also depends on what you call 'deviant'. Face it. While I can't see the attraction myself, homosexuality is becoming more and more a 'normal' way of life. As long as it doesn't affect me personally, I couldn't possibly care less what consenting adults get up to - especially when they keep it private.
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>>>>After all, when a man and a woman have sex privately, it's not a big deal, but if they were to start doing it in public, it would be a different story. Same with homosexuality afaic.