>SNIP
>>For as long as there is no effective solution for 'apples' problem, you will be hearing mantra about responsability, progress achieved, steady road to sustainable democracy and so on, while troops will be there indefenetely.
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>How is that any different than the 'mantra' many (including you in this message) keep repeating about failures ignoring the successes in the process? There have been small successes which the military hope to repeat across the country since the surge. Sadly, the same falldown effect could occur as well. I'm afraid that there is no clear way of success for Iraq. I don't mean 'success in the eyes of the American people or our administration' but success in the eyes of the Iraqis.

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>Do you support then a complete and immediate withdrawal from Iraq regardless of the outcome? I would prefer for America to admit that it has failed and beg and plead the UN to come in and help out. Until all countries participate in a security force in Iraq it will continually be on a rollercoaster ride to the detriment of all concerned. The U.S. has pulled many a country out of it self-created mess in the past so perhaps it is time all other countries in the UN do the same for her in order to help the Iraqis. If, as many claim, the true goal is the betterment of mankind and not merely proving the U.S. wrong and causing more suffering in the process.

Not immediate withdrawal.
As you hinted, Improved collaboration with UN leading to gradual withdrawal and replacement of US troops with trully international UN lead peaceforces with preferably high partcipation of native muslim peacekeepers/troops (Syria,Iran inclusive!) might have better chance of success (aldough nothing guaranteed) then US troops partnering with BlackWaters & Co.

Unfortunately, US diplomacy invested so much energy/effort in denigrating and discrediting UN, (and demonising Iran/Syria) that perhaps it will take some time before such thing is even possible.

I am not optimist at all.