Thanks for the link. Not taking anything from what Ireland has accomplished, a key phrase in Friedman's piece is "G.D.P. per capita." I bet they would not be "the richest country in Europe" (and actually Friedman said that is after Luxembourg) by more traditional measures such as national G.D.P. or average income.


>Mike;
>
>Here is a link.
>
>http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/herbiefullyloaded/84.html
>
>I have many cousins in Ireland, and most are in Galway. One cousin born in San Francisco has a PHD in Microbiology, and works at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland, doing AIDS and HIV research. He recently bought a house near Dublin and said that real estate in his area is similar to San Francisco. That leaves me concerned for the many people of Ireland who do not work in high tech. How do they live? Prosperity is not always shared or enjoyed by all.
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>>I knew the "Emerald tiger" has made a lot of gains but the richest country in Europe? Really?
>>
>>
>>>About 8 years ago Ireland was the poorest country in Europe. They elected a woman as President and today they are the richest country in Europe. I can only dream! :)
>>>
>>>You never know but I hope for the best whatever that may be.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, things are sure to change when Hilary or Obama become President (it will be one of them unless something scares the populace between now and the election).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As a separate discussion completely, I would indeed defend the Iraq invasion. We went to Iraq, and I, along with the majority of Americans, listened to the intelligence information presented and believed Iraq to be a direct threat to the U.S. We didn't go to Iraq based on what we know now, we went based on what we thought we knew then. I am still waiting for whoever is truly responsible for misleading the leaders of this country and the American people with false (intentional? not truly known or at least not proven yet) intelligence.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Intentional" in this context can never be proven. Deception artists involved in cooking up of Iraq war back then knew that very well.
>>>>>Ok, CIA chief will acknowledge he was wrong then resign and that is it, everybody else is *clean*. CIA chief is yesterday news and so is WMD all together.
>>>>>
>>>>>My problem with this way of reasoning in general is that I see it basically as denial of collective responsability which under preassured circumastances lead to defacto abolition of individual responsability.
>>>>>Complete absence of substantial reaction to WMD 'caca' once it became known
>>>>>was really shocking to me. They got away basically by saying 'Uuups... It was an accident!' and 'But so what, Saddam was bad gay anyway!'
>>>>>
>>>>>Whereas heads should have been rolling all the way up, and in all directions. That would have been only normal order of events for trully democratic country that was ready to impeach previous president for zilli-fraction of zilligram of bad doing comparing to this.
>>>>>Hello! Here we are talking about destroyed country, 6-7hundred thousand of dead, 2 million refugees, unmeasurable damages etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, we have a responsibility to the Iraqi people to help them become a >secure and safe democracy because we created the mess there and cannot >leave them until they ask us to. Our country is responsible for the mess.
>>>>>
>>>>>Up to year back or so, I would even agree with this. Even now, provided that
>>>>>there is even slow progress and results twds some sustainable solution.
>>>>>Now, are the results really substantial, or prolonged presence is creating even more mess/damage?
>>>>>Is there guarantee of success on a long run ? Are the ordinary Iraqee people really benefiting from this in any way ? Do they really aprove US presence there ? (Pools?) Do they perceive US troops and BlackWater style 'contractors' as liberators/donors or they consider them as enemies/occupiers?
>>>>>
>>>>>I no longer believe that the main reason why US is staying there is because of some real sense of responsability (that you & I could *agree* uppon) or genuine intention to rebuild/help Iraqee people/country/democracy etc.
>>>>>(You did cast doubt on intentions before?)
>>>>>
>>>>>Hence one example;
>>>>>UK is withdrawing from Basra leaving only 2500 personnel behind.
>>>>>Having much less deadweight on their feet, they claimed victory and left it basically to dominating Shia fraction(s) who will naturally at first claim victory as well, then start process of power struggle/consolidation.
>>>>>Then, they will eventually (as soon as US troops are gonne as well) rich out to surrounding muslim brotherhood (Iran,Syria) for friendship/help keeping security there. On a long run this would create one 'Big Happy Family'
>>>>>there with high desire to play *domino* with the rest of the region...
>>>>>
>>>>>These kind of 'apples' US gov. cannot so easily swallow. That is why they are still there figting battle that was already lost long time ago.
>>>>>
>>>>>For as long as there is no effective solution for 'apples' problem, you will be hearing mantra about responsability, progress achieved, steady road to sustainable democracy and so on, while troops will be there indefenetely.
>>>>>(Sustainable democracy will simply never happen there!)
>>>>>
>>>>>Worse of all, people will believe as well. Whom? The same 'Crew' who started it all back then based on a flat lie. Uuups sorry, - unreliable intelligence source/report.
>>>>>
>>>>>Peace.