This was the line I found a problem with :

>This message can be added to the now huge number of messages in these threads that really ought to be seen by certain MS employees.

Obviously the point is that if MS knew what K had done there would be consequences. My hyperbole ( exageration for the sake of emphasis ) aside, I don't think it would serve any useful purpose and the idea that this be a group action is what caused me to refer to "lynch mob" (hyperbole again, but does reflect the idea of a group of righteously motivated individuals banding together to strike out at a villain.)

I only suggested that it would be nice if people felt very strongly that Nadya had been wronged the first priority should be helping her find a job.

I don't question anyone's motives. I only question many people's sense of proportion and vision of how things really work. I think the whole affair began because people got very emotional about something that doesn't matter ( posting on Foxite, criticising tech solutions etc )

I took the same position when there was a lot of sturm und drang about "Let's all petition MS to show how upset we are about their treatment of VFP" etc. or "We should buy foxpro from MS" or "We should go to the media to expose MS's shabby treatment of VFP"... It is not that I question the rightness of the cause, but I think energy is better spent in productive directions ( in that case, learning to actually write n-tier apps with objectified data against a sql backend )

Of course, you have to factor into all this that I am cranky old man, I don't really like the ideal of collective guilt, collective responsiblity or collective action. Pretty much believe in personal responsibility ( see my comments to Denis re MVPs tarnished reputation from this affair )

If you think MS needs to know about this, do it, you don't need a mob behind you.

And what I think (or what the MVPs think) shouldn't really matter. You seem to have a clear idea of what you believe and I applaud that.

So I will say as clearly as I know how : this isn't about you. Do what makes you happy. I have no opinion on your motives or anyone else's.



>Charles, I propose we start a mini debate on this. Not a dispute, but a discussion. Not an attack, but a constructive subthread. Why I propose this? Because I perceive a fallacy being used.
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>The fallacy is best introduced using these words: I don't think organizing an MVP lynch mob or sending some kind of petition to MS [...] is the most important thing.
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>Yes I know you also said "(yes, i know you didn't suggest any of that)". But saying that you are also implicitly saying "however, others have suggested this". That you're thinking along that line can be safely assumed, because else you wouldn't have said it at all. So, my conclusion is that you think there are people here who want a MVP lynch mob and/or seek vengeance. And I have to deny that.
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>There's only one person who would probably want to seek revenge and that would be Naomi. Perhaps you would blame her for that, I would not. I would understand it.
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>All other persons involved here have other motives and those motives are ethically sound, as I see it.
>Take for example Denis Chasse today: "But to me what happened is very sad and what could be sadder is nothing happening to prevent this in the future." (Re: Big brother - The sequel Thread #1267866 Message #1268942) Another example is Bonnie Berent, who is of opinion that a MVP should also be an example in other aspects. Read the threads well and you'll discover several other sound motives.
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>Whenever you write that we should not seek vengeance or a lynch mob, you're saying words that no one really can argue against. Instead, everybody agrees very much, off course. And some show their agreement explicitly. My view on the other hand is that you shouldn't have said it at all. Because the words suggest that others involved here are far less noble than you.
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>Let me make clear that I fully understand and accept that you said it was not a personal attack. Hopefully you understand that my reply isn't one either. Further, my personal investment is not the issue for me. I can handle it all very well. Don't worry. :)
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>>Obviously you feel very personally invested in this. I wasn't thinking of you at all in regards to this whole issue. I was a just suggesting that if people were really interested in righting a wrong, helping Nadya find work would be a much more productive expenditure of time and resources than figuring out how to get Krameks stripped of their MVPs or otherwise sanctioned. I don't think organizing an MVP lynch mob or sending some kind of petition to MS ( yes, i know you didn't suggest any of that ) is the most important thing.
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>>I don't intend to get into a debate with you on this. If you are already doing what you think is right, good for you, go to it. I sincerely commend you for taking a stand on this and having a sense of justice. No attack on you is implied or intended.
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>>>Huh, this one I hadn't expected, not by you. I give you a compliment and get back a reply that indicates you think of me as someone who seeks revenge? Are you serious there?
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>>>Do you really think I'm in this all for some vengeance? In that case, please consider the possibility that my idea - that certain MS employees should read these threads - is based on ethically sound motives.
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>>>Another point: I'm one of those who have actually tried to help Naomi get back on track. However, those actions have been done in the private domain and the (wise) decision was made to not make them a part of the discussions here. Privacy and diplomacy are the keywords there.
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>>>>Personally, I'd rather see efforts focus on helping Nadya get back on track than seeking some kind of vengence.
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>>>>>Charles, you do realize that you're just only one of a small pool of people kicking this around and around?
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>>>>>No, seriously, you mentioned some very good facts and arguments here. This message can be added to the now huge number of messages in these threads that really ought to be seen by certain MS employees.