>>>>Yes, but as much as you are here yourself you would have thought that he would have had an impact here as well. Anyway, I'm more interested in the posts that Marcia hasn't started.
>>>
>>>Jay - to be honest, this attitude is one of the things I find disturbing about the UT. People here seem to feel that they're the center of the VFP universe and if you're not on the UT, then you don't count.
>>
>>Okay Tamar, let's become honest and speak out what's in our heart. You made your point, now here's my point (and I admit I'm a bit angry at this moment):
>>
>>The UT is indeed not the center of the VFP universe, but in that universe it does appear to be almost the only place I know of that has a community of REAL people, people who do not only show they have technical skills, but who also show they have an opinion about other matters and a heart too. People who even dare to stick out their neck.
>>
>>Tell you what's disturbing me: The attitude of the inner circle of certain MVPs, who apparently think that THEY are the center of the VFP universe and if you're not in that center, then you don't count.
>>
>>Far too many MVPs have not spoken out recently. It has been so silent that it was deafening. It was asif speaking out here was below their status.
>
>Interestingly, the other discussion was part of what triggered my comment. You and others here don't know what I or any other MVPs have done about that situation behind the scenes, and you're not entitled to know. I've taken the actions I consider appropriate.
>
>If you look back historically, you'll see that other than public officials, I don't rake people over the coals in public. Discretion has a value (and at least one person here who's been sounding off about MVP's silence has reason to value that discretion).

Tamar, I sincerely respect you and I'm also aware of That (not What) you've done useful things behind the scenes. But, sorry to say so, as I see it, your defense has some flaws and I'll try to show them.

First, I think it was a bad thing to remove this part and not to reply to it:
This one thread is very fresh and I have already counted more MVPs here than in all the you-know threads. That's disturbing ME. Apparently the Universal Thread is a fine place to be to say praise to yet another Most Valuable Professional, but when REAL people here have a complaint about what one Most Valuable Professional of the inner circle did to a pal in the REAL world, they are dismissed as just a bunch of agitators.
It was essential. I expressed here a feeling that I have, but likely many here have it. I'm really interested in what you think of that (because I have always respected you.

Second, you use the phrase "rake over the coals". I had to look that one up:
to talk about unpleasant things from the past that other people would prefer not to talk about. There's no point in raking over the coals - all that happened twenty years ago, and there's nothing we can do about it now. (usually in continuous tenses)
Yes, we have a Dutch saying that is similar. But we regard it as inappropriate to use it when the issue is a really fresh one, esp. if talking about it can prevent that a similar thing happens again. The issue we're talking about happened really only a short time ago and we don't want it EVER to happen again. So, in my opinion the use of that saying was inappropriate here.

Third, you are accusing someone ("at least one person...") here without giving enough information. That is not what I regard discrete, ethical behavior. Personally I can think of no one who fits your description. Remarks like that one only throw oil on the fire.

Let me restate what I think that the 'group' of MVPs have done wrong: It is known that some have done things behind the scenes, but a) it is not known to the community WHAT has been done there and b) it is not known what they THINK of the ethical issue, not even if looked at from a hypothetical point of view.
Most MVPs appear to think they are the wise people in our community and think that wise people keep their mouth shut in such a case ("WE are the discrete ones"), as opposed to the unwise ones ("THEY are the bashers"). My opinion is that a 'group' of MVPs should have come to the open with a statement.
As it is now, there is this picture rising of an inner circle of MVPs who stick together no matter what is done to a (lower) pal of the community.
See it as a matter of PR. But more important is that Naomi is helped to the best and that what happened to her will NEVER EVER HAPPEN AGAIN to anybody here. And that can only be accomplished if the WHOLE community, INCLUDING ITS MVPs, agrees to that, explicitly.

We are used to holy wars (see my first signature). It's time to set a new standard in our community, but this time on an ethical issue. I sincerely hope you see my real intentions. Else, first read my third signature.