As one of the Yanks who actually knows all the words to "Rule Britannia" and "New Jerusalem" and learned Kipling as a child ( our family were great kiplers ) I think it is worth mentioning that while everyone who in any way contributed to literally saving the world should take great pride in doing so, each country learned many hard lessons about itself and about the nature of evil.

The Russians certainly led the league in suffering - but that was as much a product of Stalin's actions as Hitler's. Without the Hitler Stalin pact the blitz West would not have been possible and without Stalin's incredible viciousness in purging his own officer corps and blindness at Hitler's intentions the Germans would never have *seen* Stalingrad. Zhukov should have shot Stalin first , then the Germans.

The Poles were the victims of geography. The Czechs were sold out. The French had a very tough time of it but certainly were not a big factor in victory. The Balkans and Greece were tough but victims of their own complicated history as well. The Dutch and the Belgians did what they could but had terrain that was just too accessible.

But England - my God.

Our ( and I mean the US and the Canadians ) industrial strength was the greatest North American contribution to the war in Europe ( in the Pacific we carried the can ) but we (the US, not the Canadians ) got in late and then only after FDR deceived and manipulated the isolationist American public in a way that makes George Bush look like a paragon of candor.

But Britain - who of all countries could have cut the best deal with the Germans ( and who had some very prominent citizens who wanted to do just that ) - decided there really was something worth fighting for. And fire wardens stood on the dome of St Paul's in the Blitz and pilots too young to shave went up again and again and children were evacuated to the country and little boats went to Dunkirk. At at Bletchley Park a bunch of nerds learned how an English gentleman could read other people's mail.

And that all sounds like an old black and white movie now and it is scoffed at sometimes in post-modern ennui - but the summer of 1940 really happened and it was one of the major turning points of human history.

We did our share, as did so many others (lets not forget the Aussies and Kiwis as well as the Canadians ) but it was not the all encompassing experience for us that it was for the Europeans.

History is often full of vainglorious hype and overblown myth and revisionists will go after anything too idealized - but that doesn't mean there have not been genuine magically heroic moments when a culture defines itself.

Person for person, pound for pound I'd have to give the MVP trophy to Britain. Britain made it possible to save civilization.


>Not sure. Its possible the Russians could have destroyed the Germans but we will never know. I've not seen an analysis of how much US and Uk logistics contributed to the Russian effort. Plus the effect of heavy bombing on German industry.
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>>This is not country bashing - winning the war was due to the combined efforts of the allies. However, due you really believe (this is an historical question based on politics, military strength, strategy, economy, et al) that the allies would have won WWII without the U.S. participating? And if so, after how many years of fighting and at what cost?
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>>>I wouldn't get into country bashing here Kevin.
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>>>But remember the Russians destroyed a German army at Stalingrad in 1942 2 years before we landed in Normandy. The tide was turning then.
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>>>I think its simplistic to say one or other country won the war. Its more like a jigsaw puzzle.
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>>>>Nonetheless, after 3 years of war, the tide only turned against Germany after the US got involved.
>>>>germany was firmly entrenched in Europe, had Britain on the ropes, and was clearly not going anywhere.
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>>>>My original point in my repsonse to Peter was that the rest of the world is so quick to bash the US,
>>>>until they need something. They they all line up with hands out looking for a handout.
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>>>>>>>I'm glad someone said that. WW II probably would not have been won without the U.S.
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>>>>>>Just would have taken much longer. In fact the Russians took the brunt on the European war scene.
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>>>>>Agreed. Look at the stats on men and material involved. Plus the majority of the elite Nazi divisions where destroyed on the eastern front.