Mike,

Welcome back... I see you've got your knives sharpened.

>>>>>>It's painful to think of U.S. troops remaining there until these bozos get their act together. That could be forever.
>>>>>
>>>>>Fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
>>>>>
>>>>>How much thought have you given to the consequences of succeeding in forming a democratic Iraq?
>>>>
>>>>Not much.
>>>
>>>Try, in your mind, just as an exercise, to eliminate your current batch of conclusions.
>>>
>>>Now, open yourself to the possibilities that 15 years from now, Iraq is a real working democracy.
>>
>>Define democracy....
>
>
>An open society is one where leaders and policies change non-violently.

So russia was/is an open society?
Democracy is far more than that. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy. I guess you are talking about a 'representative democracy' rather than a 'Direct democracy'. I do regard switzerland one of the purest forms of democracy. But that has real drawbacks as well. Most countries do have other forms of democracy.


>>It is in no-ones interest to have democracy in the middle east.
>
>Ah. So, you know what my interests are? And you know the interests of Iraqis?
>And it is for them to be ruled by Saddam?

The iraqies interest at the moment really is peace. And getting out of the mess they currently are in. 'Democracy' (Iraq currently is nothing more than a puppet state) has not done any good to them right now.

>You should consider speaking for yourself and letting me express my own opinions.

You can express free speech, so can I

>>It is far easier and more effective to make dirty deals (As the US has done in the past all too frequent) with dictators than with democracies.

>If it was more effective, we wouldn't have taken Saddam and the Taliban out after putting them in.

What makes you think you have taken out the taliban?? NATO is fighting them each and every day in Afghanistan and are not making any progress. And in regards of Saddam... what did it gain you?

>We realized it was ineffective, and that Democracy is the only future for all the world.

Again, which form of 'democracy' ?


>>The Western world just want their oil and them using dollars. Nothing more.
>How good are you at chess?

Used to be pretty good..


>>The countries themselves don't want democracy. So why push it?
>The countries themselves want to solve problems faced in their society.

Yes... and you think 'democracy' is the only cure?

>The solutions to disease, hunger, and poverty begin with an open society.

They begin with a leader who know what needs to be done. A leader that has a vision how to solve certain problems. That in itself has nothing to do with an open society. However for a nation to further develop, delegation of and decentralizing power is needed. In dictatorship this often comes with corruption and incompetence. Democracy usually is more effective in getting the right man in the right position.

>>It is utterly naive to think the spreading democracy was any motive for the iraq invasion.
>Let's say I invent a new energy source.

>It changes the world in all sorts of good ways.
>But I never cared about that. I just wanted to make some money.
>Does my selfish motive negate the positive changes that occurred?

Lets say, you invent a new type of energy that causes the death of millions of people. How would you feel? Really, what positive sides does the situation in iraq have post-war compared to pre-war. What positive changes for Joe Average ??

>>Of course the most obvious one is oil, but I came accross a much more plausible explanation:
>>http://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html
>
>The most obvious reason is in fact oil.

As I did state above.. Did you read the link?

>If we never invaded Iraq, 25 years from now, when Oil costs $35.00/gallon, Saddam's sons would be some of the most powerful people in the world.

You'd better get your facts straight. Iraq is not the only one producing oil. In fact there are far more important countries. The US really does not need Iraqi oil. Read the link.

>That's a bad scenario.

It probably will happen anyways irregardless of this war. Unless the US is going to claim a monopoly on oil.

>This is chess, son.

Chess mate.

>Think a couple moves ahead.

You're not looking ahead far enough... take your blinders off.