>I agree with you, "the community" is definitely not only the current VFP programmers. My guess is that AK was thinking more about a small but loadmouthed group of VFP programmers who has left VFP for other platforms, and who afterwards has made a good business out of persuading other programmers to leave the VFP ship. These people have also persuaded a lot of our customers to choose other platforms over VFP.
>

I'm not sure if that is exactly what Andy meant. I understand your feelings about those who defected early, but I have to say I think most of them were sincere in trying to persuade other Fox developers to do the same, at least that is how I chose to understand their efforts. Rod Paddock, Rick Strahl, Jim Duffy, Markus Egger, Kevin McNeish and a host of others started playing with the .NET stuff immediately, watched what MS was doing and made the assessment that developing those skills was a good business move. I don't see that as any kind of disloyalty, but rather trail-blazing (and those are the guys who get the first waves of arrows)

I guess I just never felt emotional about this stuff. I rather like new stuff - that's why I got into computers. I have reached a point in VFP where I am not getting the excitement I was in the early days when I knew so little I could double my knowledge on a good day. In my .NET stuff, I get that rush - it's all new and very challenging and there are a lot of neat surprises and little rewards from figuring something out. I don't blame anyone who went over to something else, no matter how much they pestered me to follow them. I think most of them did it in the same spirit where they shared discoveries they made *in* foxpro.



>>Okay, I get what you're saying but in my reading of what he wrote I really didn't see an accusation that VFP developers *caused* MS's decision, just that the way things had developed (undoubtedly partly due to MS's indifference to VFP) there wasn't a lot of financial incentive that would demand continuing VFP beyond 9. I think the comments about the major rewrite that would be required was more on point. Perhaps it's because I heard him discuss this stuff so much in other contexts than the blog (and have heard so much off-camera talk from 3rd party developers etc who really *do* feel the "community" was a big part of the problem) that it never occured to me that he felt the developers were the reason this was happening. But 'blaming' MS - they made a business decision which Andy said he felt was the wrong one, as do I, as do you.
>>
>>I just don't see that what he said rises to the level of treason but I have a pretty thick skin for people venting opinions. I can't even crank up that level of ire against MS. (maybe I'm just getting old and burned out all my life-and-death animosity in situations that were *really* life and death <s> )
>>
>>As I've said before, I've made a lot more money out of Microsoft than they've even made off of me. Wish I had that relationship with the rest of corporate America <g>
>>
>>
>>>Well, there are people out there that can't understand the logic and I guess you're one of them. This is like criticizing the person who is slammed in the head with a 2x4 for passing out. It only stands to reason that people are not going to move to a newer version if they feel that VFP is coming to an end. They are more likely to coast on what they have and look at other options. They are sometimes not able to get the IT dept. mgrs. to commit to the expense of the new software and the conversion (granted, it doesn't take a lot of programming, sometimes none, but people feel it needs to be tested and validated and that takes time and money). And who has left them with this feeling? Perhaps you and Andy can't figure it out, but it's Microsoft. Lack of marketing and attention to this product - other than from the team - left a very clear message. Many people did what they could to change Microsoft's attitude, but it was not to be. So the root of the problem is Microsoft, not
>>the
>>> community. And when Andy criticizes the community he is criticizing them for a business decision (some of them, at least). The same type of "business decision" Microsoft supposedly made (you know, the one he defends). So his logic is poor and he is hypocrite for criticizing one group for a business decision, but defending another group for a very similar business decision. As I said, it's a blame game and he blames the victims and forgives the perpetrator. Well, I do resent that and so did others in the community.
>>>
>>>>> I have to say this isn't the "community" of the Foxgang days and I don't mourn it's passing the way I would have ten years or fifteen years ago
>>>
>>>Perhaps, but Andy statement is a prime cause of it. Basically, the "we're in this together, let's see what we can do to improve things" attitude changes to him pointing fingers and blaming for his fellow VFP developers, when, in fact, M$ is to blame. That's not an attitude that makes for community and that's why - going forward - I wouldn't mourn losing any input from him.
>>>
>>>Finally, I did find what he did in relation to Naomi to be reprehensible, however that was between one person and another. I did comment on it, but it didn't affect me personally nor did it affect the entire community, so I can pass that off as a personal battle that got out of hand and hope that they can patch it up (which, BTW, requires apologies).
>>>
>>>
>>>>So if I understand you correctly you think that since Andy expressed the opinion that failure of VFP developers to upgrade from VFP 6.0 ( which I believe he said was the most used version out there ) in sufficient numbers to make MS think there was economic viablility in the product contributed to its decision to not extend the product beyond VFP 9 he has INSULTED the "VFP Community" and you are owed an apology?
>>>>
>>>>Wow.
>>>>
>>>>Please understand I have no intention of characterizing you, only this idea. I don't know you, have never heard of you, and I am sure you are a fine fellow who loves his country and is good to his children and has foxes on his pajamas. But this is nonsense.
>>>>
>>>>Andy has his detractors, God knows, but I have to say the idea of him being some kind of flack or apologist for Microsoft is enough to make anyone who knows him giggle. And the line you are talking about is almost a throwaway line in a very thorough and thoughtful blog entry where he analyzes a business reality (MS's decision on VFP) and it's implication and impact on the current VFP developers.
>>>>
>>>>I don't know what you had to lose from MS's decision but as I know Tightline was looking at speaking engagements, book contracts, and $300 an hour for the pair of them that could only suffer from it, I don't suppose they were cheering for the demise of Foxpro. And I never ever heard either of them suggest moving from VFP to .NET in all the years when most VFP gurus of their level were doing just that.
>>>>
>>>>I don't quite understand what you mean by saying you have 'worked hard for VFP' as I thought I knew the VFP team, third party tool developers, authors and speakers for the most part, but okay, I'll certainly accept maybe I don't know everyone who contributed to VFP over the years, but how you managed to crank up this degree of umbrage over Andy saying those who *didn't* support the product contributed to the perception of a lack of support ... well, I guess there is no arguing about what it takes for someone to feel themselves a victim.
>>>>
>>>>So, I was willing to think that perhaps you had a point in there somewhere and was interested in looking for it since it was beyond the expected outrage over what I have said I thought were some reprehensible decisions last year in the Naomi affair but I see now your issue is related to one comment in a blog post with which you disagree that you somehow feels rises to the level of a personal and group insult that can only be atoned for by a public apology and that the reason none will be forthcoming is either the stupidity or arrogance of someone who arguably had at least a much to lose as you did but who somehow has managed to channel his anger and move on.
>>>>
>>>>We do agree that no apology with be forthcoming. I don't think stupidity is one of Andy's shortcomings <s>, and while arrogance may fit, there is also the possibility that he - like me and perhaps a number of others - might find your level of outrage ... well, silly.
>>>>
>>>>It takes many varieties of people to make a world or a community but I have to say this isn't the "community" of the Foxgang days and I don't mourn it's passing the way I would have ten years or fifteen years ago.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hey, I swore off cannibalism for New Years and so far - knock on wood - I haven't slipped.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think the statement you refer to was the statement I am referring to. The stupidity of that statement is that M$ ignored the product from an advertising support standpoint and that sends a big, giant message. M$ is an excellent marketing company. They know its power and they know what lack of it does, also. They turned their back on it - except that they did let the team serve up improvements - knowing the message that would send. Many people got the message and decided to move to other pastures. Then M$ turns back around, says "hey, where did everyone go?" and act like they're surprised. Then Andy chimes in with his very thick assessment of the situation, ignoring the very powerful message sent by M$ via their lack of marketing, and blaming the community by saying we didn't buy enough. Well, duh, can you blame people? The answer for him seems to be "yes" and I - and others - find that INCREDIBLY insulting.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now, has he been generous in the past? Sure. But where was the generosity (or, perhaps more accurately, his brain) when he made the "it's the community's fault" statement? Hmmm? Where? Nowhere is the answer. It was blame the victim. So he loves the community so much that he blames it for being defecated on by M$? Yeah, that's real love!
>>>>>
>>>>>Personally, I bought every version of VFP, either directly or via MSDN Universal and I encouraged other people to do that, also. Jim Eddins of FoxToolBox.com recently told me "According to Ken Levy VFP 8 far exceeded VFP 7 in sales and VFP 9 outsold both 7 and 8 combined." So the lack of sales issue may be another smoke screen.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm not sure where your "enemy of the VFP community" quote came from (or maybe you did not mean it as a quote but rather a "this is the way he is being portrayed" statement), but I didn't say that. I haven't gone that far with my feelings. As for his past contributions, I take nothing away from him. However, I found that one statement so insulting (and, as I said, pretty stupid), that I would not want to attend any of his sessions were I going to SW Fox. I believe I posted a reply to his blog entry and others have expressed their opinions, but I think he's too full of himself to rethink his statements and apologize.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bottom line is this: I have worked hard for VFP and I have supported it. I know many others who have. For him to point fingers - even at the people who left when they felt M$ was delivering a powerful message - is da-mn-ed insulting and I resent it. It's a blame game he was playing for his own benefit, but he hasn't the guts or intelligence to point his finger at the real culprit. I thank him for all the past efforts, but until I hear an apology, I'd personally not like to hear his name or see his face again.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ok, now you know my real feelings . . .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I must have missed the blog entry to which you refer. I know he said part of the problem VFP was not economically viable for MS was that VFP developers did not actually buy new versions in sufficient numbers. But even if he said something you don't agree with, how does that negate sharing knowledge and time with Fox developers over the years? Obviously you feel very strongly about whatever comment he made, and you are certainly entitled to be offended by it if you like and perhaps you could point me to a specific blog entry that would cause me to feel as you do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Personally, I've had enough conversations with Andy over the years to think I have some idea of how he feels about a lot of things and while I don't agree with some of it, I have never seen him to be selfish in sharing what he knows even when there was nothing in it for him. I'd call that generosity of spirit. I am a little surprised to see him cast in the roll of 'enemy of the VFP community' (to which he has contributed a great deal)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have seen this 'community' change a great deal from the CIS days and one of the characteristics that seems to have become more prevalent is the tendency to eat its own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>