>>>>>Look these are all macho talks... You'll be talking a lot different when such thing happened to you.
>>>>Walter, argue the facts. Leave out the insults.
>>>
>>>Argue what facts?? You cannot argue facts. You can only argue conclusions..
>>
>>There might be a dispute on what you consider "facts". BTW, *I* am speaking from personal expirience:
>>this has shaped my views on not to back down. Perhaps you will reach different conclusions after you have had directly/first hand witnessed such situations or police and court handling of such cases.
>
>which will disable you to look at the bigger picture and forces you to focus on that one particular dramatic case. This is not particular helpfull in creating laws that have the purpose of to prevent this from happening again.

Here I am totally in disagreement: unless you are involved you don't take the time to compare deed with result, especially when seen from the POV of the criminal.

>Too many people are focusing on 'Revenge' rather than preventing this to happen again. 'Revenge' is a very poor tool to prevent things from happening again. Just recently, in all dutch newspapers, a scientific study was released, saying that imprisonment does not make a person a better person. In fact, once imprisoned, the chances of falling back into the criminal circuit are much higher than when an alternative sentence is issued (Ater all, in jail you live with criminals together). This esspecially applies for young people.

Imprisonment is not a good idea. Pain might be barbaric, but a better deterrent. Also *having* to reimburse the victim should be the norm (yes, I know I could slip half way down to slavery again using such arguements). For repeat child molesters surgical measures might be more effective in prevention.

>And sure if you are a victim, you'd nothing less to see that person punished as much as possible 'Revenge', but in practise it has shown that it does not make criminals a better person.

I am not interested in making him a better person, just in deterring him (enough) from doing it again. Hightening the risk during the crime would be *part* of that. As for the revenge part: I see no problem giving the victim options to inflict at least as much pain as the criminal did, if he/she wants it.

>So our thinking up here, is to prevent them from getting them imprisoned, but to punish them with social work and guide them onto the right path.

"Punish" being for me the operative word: social work for beating up elderly people or raping young women / kids is not received as "punishment" but as being lucky to get a light sentence. Wrong message if you want to change behaviour.

>Of course for some people there is no hope... imprisonment is the only solution.. for them it is too late.
>To base your improsoning policy on 'Revenge' is a very, very inefficient way of dealing with the problem... Look at the US.

Agreed. But pampering them is worse - slap them hard (compared to the pain they evoked in others), force them to make amends as well escalating the punishment on each repeat offense - and if their behaviour occurs again and again, lock them away for good or kill them - but the last only in much clearer cases like the Manson murders.

regards

thomas