Tracy,

>The Netherlands had 148 murders in 2006 and it had a population of 16,491,461 which is 8.9%. The number of murders rose in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. The U.S. had 17,034 murders (includes all levels) and it had a population of 299,398,484 which is around 8.2%. that number includes the huge rise in murders in New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina which could and should have been prevented. Granted, there may be fewer gun deaths in Netherlands and the violent crimes overall may be fewer, but the total percentage of murders is certainly nothing to shout about in comparison. I'm ok with 1% in prison if they committed crimes. I'm not really sure how the different views on incarceration has helped the Netherlands? This is not meant to be sarcastic, and if my numbers are wrong, please correct me. I am interested in which method really will work in the long run. I'm not convinced rehabilitation really works for all crimes, but then it may simply be that there are not any good
>rehabilitation programs in place.

Could you reculculate that? Your calculation does not make sense to me. According to the numbers above, the netherlands have a murder rate of 0.89 per 100.000 citizens. The US has a murder rate of 5.7 murders per 100.000 citizens. That is more than 6.4 times as much.

See http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita (note data from 2003). About the causes. That of course is interesting food for politicians who really want to do something about the issue. I think first of all it is about social issues: Poverty, single parent homes, abortion policy, education, crime. Second is the hard line policy to incarnate (e.g. 3 strikes, you're out, death penalty). Esspecially for young people who are convicted from their first crime, jail is going to be dramatic. And NO this does not make him a better person. He is more likely to be a hardened criminal if he is jailed, rather than an alternative sentence. In the latter case, he will have less problems finding an honest job later. There have been a lot of studies up here in regards to handle youth and particular ethnical groups in order to get/keep them out of crime. And really, they all conclude that the hard line of imprisonment is the least effective.

What seems to work up here (to a certain extent) is to identify problem youth and talk to them (kind of social work) and speak their language. There have been succesfull experiments in Rotterdam where the neighbourhood setup an action team to patrol the streets and talk to the youth and report and assist to the police. Also, we up here are more inclined to alternative or shorter sentences to give them the opportunity to realize they are on the wrong path WITHOUT taking them out of society (too long). Of course if it is a hardened criminal, then harder and longer sentences should be issued.

Also, there is a lot of taking about avoiding getto's. Rebuilding whole neighbourds, increasing social control, making sure that kids go to school. Force parents to take care of their kids well, if not, force them or dismiss them from parenthood etc. There certainly a lot of ideas and experiments going on here. Most will fail, some will succeed. But that is the only way you will come to a better solution to the problem. It is a very painfull process where accidents and incidents do happen.

What stikes me as a typical american ignorant attitude (call that anti americanism, if you want) here, is the hard right wing approach of harder punishments and revenge sentences while if anyone with an open mind looks at it and is willing to compare the situation in any other country sees it does not work. There seems to be a total lack of progressive thinking to look at the causes of the problem and actually do something about it. It is simply dismissed with a macho and blinded stance, with harder and longer imprisonments, as if that is going to help...




















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>>>>>... or you can say that one reason some people turn to crime is because the punishment is too lenient. It's easier to be in jail for a few years than being on your own trying to make a lawful living. They're the little train that couldn't or wouldn't...:)
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>>>>You don't create a better society by hardening the punishment. You don't correct your son with harder and harder punishment when he did something wrong. It will not make him a better person. Simulary, you won't make a criminal a better person when you punish him hard and long. If a criminal has nothing to lose you have a person that will have no reason to follow the law.
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>>>Since you just seem to know what not to do and don't seem to have any answer to what to do, I'll tell you what I think must be done with harden criminals... lock 'm up forever doing hard time (harder the better) or just get rid of them. Either way I don't care, but I prefer the latter.
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>>oh, I do got the answer... but you'll discover later when 2% of all americans are improsoned that you're currently on the road to nowhere. What do you think it costs to imprison someone and who is paying for that ?? You're an example of those americans that believe in punishment and revenge, rather to work on matters that really prevent this from happening and work on matter to prevent this from happening again when they get out of jail.
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>>>>Punishments and revenge are not the way to create a better society. This is exactly the point here.
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>>>No punishment for doing crime, what a great thing.... if you're a criminal.
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>>You're a bad listener sam.... and a stereotype over here.
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>>Maybe you did not get the point but there is no country in the world that holds as much prisoners in the whole world (by far) and yet has a violent society (compared to other western countries).
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>>Now enlighten me, what is causing this ??