>>>>>>>>>>I'm pretty sure Nicholas and I are in similar places on this, which is that kids earn increased trust as they get older. The problems with watching over a kid too closely are that a) they don't develop their own judgment; and b) it can lead to sneakiness.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hey, let's split some hairs. Some kids lose your trust, as they grow older, and spin their way toward prison....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Is everything starting to look like a nail, John? ;-) I thought this was a discussion between involved parents about parenting approaches. It would surprise me if any of the participants is worried about their kids going to prison.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Not at all. I see many screws.... Just making the point, that there IS a dark side. Not everyone has a child who is destined to become a PhD, hence the criminal population.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sure, but serious question, John. You've surely dealt with more criminals than anyone else here. What percent of them would you say had caring, involved parents, who would have even participated in a discussion like this one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tamar
>>>>>
>>>>>If I haven't seen more criminals/crime, someone is in very bad shape! I would say less that 2%. But, I thought we were talking about people in general. Families in the hood aren't families, as we know them. They are generally comprised of a grandmother, several female mothers, and a bunch of kids who cannot be or are not controlled. The mother, may be working a couple of low paying jobs, or she may be selling herself, or out doing crimes like shoplifting for the gang. Talk about thriving on chaos! It's the proverbial "rough row to hoe"
>>>>>
>>>>>The issue is so complex that no single solution will fix it. The government programs need to be retooled to stop encouraging single mothers. Schools need to teach, not be caregivers, and the black males need to "man up." They are the ones who can fix this, by being fathers instead of sperm donors. For that to happen, hip hop, gangstah rap, thuggery, gangs, etc have to become a bad thing in the black community. Calling your girlfriend "my bitch" is normal in the hood right now. Would you have tolerated that? I doubt it, so the females have a hand in turning this around too. I don't think us "white boyz" can have much impact, other that trying to be supportive of programs that are measured, and tweaked when the intent doesn't deliver the desired results.
>>>>
>>>>As opposed to the wealthy white men who fail to live up to their responsibilities but live in a 250,000 home, drive a brand new truck, own a bass boat,earn a good wage and additionally bring home 120,000.00 tax free from 6 months civilian service in Afghanistan and try to hide it? That law suit was really enjoyable, believe me. $36,000 back child support is still owed my daughter, but at least she gets a monthly amount now garnished from all future wages and military retirement. :o) I will keep it going until not only is the current paid (until she graduates college) but all back monies as well. Doesn't matter how many trips to the court with an attorney it takes. Don't mess with an ex-military, yankee, single mother living in the land of slow speakers! :o)
>>>
>>>We wouldn't, we wouldn't! LOL
>>>
>>>I am glad to hear it is working out in the courts, at least partially. And saddened that it had to come to that. There is only one word that comes to mind to describe a man who refuses to support his own child, especially when he has the means, and I think you can guess what that word is. Well, I guess there is more than one ;-) -- the one I was thinking of was selfish.
>>
>>Funny, his excuse was that I made too much money! What does that have to do with anything? It isn't for me or my future. That is exactly what the judge told him too. I think 'she' liked me better :o)
>
>If this isn't too nosy, does Haley see him?

Yes, every now and then when it is convenient for him. They speak on the phone at least once a week. He lives 2.5 hours away, but his family lives here where we are.