>>>>>>>>>The UN Security Council called for an end to hostilities yesterday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>That's not really the same as
the attacks have been condemned by the UN and many individual governments, including the U.S.>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>There have been a number of middle eastern governments condemning it, but the UN and the U.S. have been careful not to. In fact, the U.S. stated that the blame for the fighting lies with Hamas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Personally, I think Hamas blew it. They expected eventual Israeli retaliation, but not at this level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>FYI
>>>>>>>There was a truce that was for most part respected since june this year. It was ended by Israel incursion on 4th of november.
>>>>>>>After that home made rockets started hitting Ashkelon again. Israel took it as an opportunity to (over)react in yet another showdown
>>>>>>>of disproportinate force simillar to Lebanon case few years ago.
>>>>>>>Counting deaths only;
>>>>>>>There was 1 (one) death reported in Israel (before ofansive started) and as counter measure for that,
>>>>>>>massive 'counterattack' that left 290 (and counting) deaths in Gaza. (At the time when I got my news update)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You can blame Hammas for many things, but they DID KEEP truce all the way up to 4th of november. That was perhaps
>>>>>>>only real surprise in this whole situation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All the rest was more or less expected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>People who live in glass houses shouldn't fire rockets from within civilian areas.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well way the Gazans are squised there are'nt ANY areas that are not civilian. It is not like pallestinians have some woods
>>>>>and hills to hide inn... It is Gaza
strip. If Israel continue this way, soon enough they will be pushed to the sea.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Considering that the reports say that something like 80% of the casualties the Israelis have inflicted are military/terrorist/Hamas, I'd >>say that's pretty darned good shooting.
>>>>>
>>>>>You are talking about it almost like hunters chat about yesterday 'score'. Alan, these are PEOPLE not animals!
>>>>>No matter what common propaganda sources (and White house as well !) brands them.
>>>>>Unless you consider any Gazan male 14 years and up, to be a terrorist and thus legit target.
>>>>
>>>>Of course they're people, but understand. If Israel wasn't making every effort to target terrorists only, the 80% terrorist to 20% civilian figures would very probably be the other way around.
>>>>
>>>>How about the Hamas? What effort are they making not to target civilians?
>>>>
>>>>>>This won't stop until the Hamas and the Palestinians who elected them get it through their heads that sending rockets indiscriminantly into Israeli civilian areas is a bad idea that has to end.
>>>>
>>>>>It defenetely has to end, but will it really end this way, or what is happening will just induce more violence and hatred?
>>>>
>>>>So, you figure the answer is for Israel to just sit back and let Hamas continue to send rockets into civilian areas hoping their aim is bad?
>>>>
>>>>>As I said, there was truce period between
june and november which was
quiet time, considering the history between the two. How many people actually died in Israel between june and november as result of Hammas activities ? Stats ?
>>>>>(please do not come up with number of home made rockets falling outside urban areas... )
>>>>>
>>>>>Hammas did refrain from fighting, and kept truce in return for practically nothing. Israel still kept Gaza under total siege causing looming humanitarian crrises, and finally ended it with insult to the injury - Army incursion on november 4th.
>>>>>So if you were Pallestinian living in Gaza what would you do ?
>>>>
>>>>As I understand it, and I have no first hand knowledge of the truth or not of it, Israel moved to head off an immediate threat by Hamas. As I said, I don't know the truth or propaganda of it. What I do know is that Israel hit only Hamas "military personnel". Hamas retaliated by firing rockets at Israeli civilian areas. Unfortunately, that always seems to be the way of it. Israel aims at miltary, and Hamas aims at civilians.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps Hammas sticking to that truce is exactly what made Israely hard liners nervous...
>>>>>If Hammas can keep their word and stick with truce, then with every next truce that is being kept (resulting in relative peace),
>>>>>it would be harder and harder to maintain picture of them as being blunt terrorists.
>>>>
>>>>My understanding is that Hamas was keeping the truce while building a tunnel in order to eventually break the truce. And that's what Israel attacked.
>>>>
>>>>>Once you have truce upgraded to relative peace, relative peace can lead to - peace talks!
>>>>>And who in the hell wants that, before Pallestinians are forced to accept almost anything
>>>>>that is thrown to them as peace proposal. (Or so Ehud Barak & Co contemplate...)
>>>>
>>>>>There is only one thing wrong with this whole 'algebra' ;
>>>>>Pallestinians lived long enough in their big getto called Gaza, that they have exactly nothing to loose.
>>>>>For them,
death is an easy way out. So no matter how hard Ehud Barak hits them, any future peace negotiations will not change almost anything in substance or nature, but rather become almost impossible to happen.
>>>>>So by doing what their doing, Israel is basically cementing anger/hatred foundation for another 30 or 40 years of permanent conflict. Nothing else. (Or so we hope that there will be no new big wars in middle east)
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't see how this can bring any good to anybody.
>>>>
>>>>Israel is a country surrounded by people who want nothing more than it's complete obliteration. I can pardon it for being a bit paranoid. On the other hand, I do agree that ghettoising people is never going to lead to anything good. If Israel hopes to achieve peace, they have to find a way to break the Palestinian people away from hardliners like Hamas. Ghettoising them is most certainly not the best way to go about it. Having said that, they do have a right to defend themselves from those same hardliners.
>>>
>>>Don't you agree, though, that terrorism is born of desperation? They don't just wake up one morning and decide to start blowing people up for no reason. They resort to terrorism because nothing else has worked. The Palestinians still have no homeland (as Israel does), are still told where they can go and can't go, and so on.
>>>
>>>(One thing I suspect we agree on is that if other Arab nations felt that strongly about the Palestinians they could have carved out a homeland for them by now).
>>>
>>>You keep mentioning this 80% statistic. Not disputing it, just wondering where you got it.
>>
>>The numbers I've read say that of the 364 killed, 62 are women and children. That's about 17%. Add in some adult non-militant males, and it moves up to around 20%. For whatever reason, the number of adult non-militant males is not accurately reported.
>>
>>Here's one report:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/29/news/ML-Gaza-Life-Under-Fire.php>>Here's a slightly earlier one:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians>>Here's one even from Al Jazeera. Add up the numbers and you get (at that point) 115 killed of which 21 are civilians
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/01/20085251361239680.html>
>Needless to say that all doubtful cases e.g. "adult non-militant males" would be listed as civilians.
I expect so, and that's probably why hard numbers aren't quite so forthcoming. But I figure if even Al Jazeera quotes a less than 20% civilian death rate, it's probably not far off the mark.
