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Kevin Goff has been (unfairly?) Banned - Week Two
Message
De
15/01/2009 03:01:14
Walter Meester
HoogkarspelPays-Bas
 
 
À
14/01/2009 20:20:30
Information générale
Forum:
Politics
Catégorie:
Autre
Divers
Thread ID:
01302908
Message ID:
01373933
Vues:
28
>>>I don't think 600,000 Israelis would in any way negatively impact our society - including settlers, Orthodox, hardline Zionists, whatever. And if you think 1000 Gaza residents with a proportionate representation of Hamas would have zero impact on Dutch society, you may be correct, but that only shows that you've already allowed one of the great European cultures to be subverted beyond redemption.
>>
>>Terrorist will not be accepted as jewish terrorist will not be accepted in the US as well (yes there are jewish terrorist groups).
>>
>>Why do you think that cultures are static? Do you think US culture and society is not suspectable to that?
>>
>
>I am not feeling very nervous about Irgun or the Stern Gang. I would rather my own security depend on Mossad or Shin Beit rather than Leon Pinetta's CIA. I find the level of expected Jewish suicide bombers acceptable.
>
>I think for the most part the Muslim population of the United States is making a very positive contribution to our society and is going through an assimilation process that has been part of our culture ( with all the difficulties, prejudice and hardship that has often been part of that process )
>
>My understanding of the Muslim communities in Europe and Britain ( I am still enough of an Anglophile to distinguish between the two ;-) ) is that there is far less assimilation. France is a very clear example as is England. I don't know about Holland but just what we see in the papers leads me to believe a very large percentage of your Muslim population has no interest in becoming Dutch or adopting Dutch cultural norms.
>
>And there is a huge amount of Wahhabi money flowing into those communities and that money has a political and cultural agenda. And the reproductive demographics, open borders and short distances will compound the problem.

I do not see the problem as long as this money is not used to fund radical or terroristic movements. This is a problem that our intelligence agency is trying to set its teeth into. This is a problem that is on the political agenda up here.

>I believe this will be one of the greatest challenges Europe will face in the next decade.

You are correct that this is the general view on the matter.The US has no policy to force immigrants to assimulate except on economical factors. Meaning, if you don't speak english, you wont be able to earn any money. And for most of them, it would mean no income at all. Any immigrant then is forced to learn english and integrate.

In europe immigrants are receiving more money without any counter performance, not giving then as much economical reasons to integrate and assimulate.

I think the matter is more nuanced that what is written above. Having visited the US quite a few times these are the observations I made:

-On Seatlle air port (if I remember correctly) all signs are written in three language amongst with English and Chinese. I don't know of any airport in europe doing that.

-China town in Washington seems no different to me than any china town anywhere else. People are speaking english as well as their causins in holland speak the dutch language. Their community seems as tight and closed as well.

- When I visit the south of the US (e.g. Texas), there is a real chance that I cannot express myself in english but have to follow a course of spanish to be able to talk to people there.

-Then there are quite a few often very conservative religious groups that do not take part of the american society at all (e.g. amish)

So from personal experience, I'm not at all that impressed with american assimulation.

OTOH, if we look at the european side, it is worth to mention the following:

- Many european countries made a mistake in the 60's and 70's to import workforce from remote areas in Morroco and Turkey with a total different culture. They expected them to be here temporarily, but it turned out to be most of them stayed here, and more over, get their family and even future wifes immigrated without any form of integration. We are still paying for the consequences of that.

- We have a lot of problems with certain immigrants, while having absolutely no problems with others (Asians in general are immigrants with the least amount of trouble) independed on the level of integration.

- Europe is hosting a lot of refugees that would never be accepted in NA. OTOH, the refugees are not really the problem as they seems to be more motivated to integrate.

-Europe always has been populated by countless different ethnicities. Forcing assimilation (to what exactly?) has led to many bloody and devastating wars in the past, so that is no option at all. However europe is learning a hard lesson and is forced to deal with groups that are opposing the rest of the society. How to deal with that is a good question. Remember that with most of them it is not really an issue.

-The EU has opened up its borders to create a economical market force eclipsing the US one. This means that every EU citizen is allowed to work in any other country of the EU without any working permit. In practise this means that you now will find a lot of polish people accross all of europe to earn way more money than they could when staying in Polland. (BTW, polish people are well respected for being hard workers (OTOH, not so well respected for drinking too much)). This also means that cultures are going to mix. But really that is nothing new. That happens all the time, even in the old days. For example: Just google the history of Santa Claus and you know what I mean.

-In holland, new immigrants are forced to follow a course of the dutch culture. That means they have to learn the dutch language to some extend, dutch laws and culture. This is not quite effictive (yet), but at least we are recognising the problem and trying something to improve integration.
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