I actually agree with pretty much everything you say here and I probably did not express myself correctly if I seemed to say the Palestinians were not victims of history. I meant to say that the Palestinian people have been more the victims of outsiders with their own agenda and leaders that represent the worst elements in their own society than they are victims of the Israelis.

That does not minimize the fact that they have suffered terribly and deserve much better.

But I think part of their problem is the idea that their problems are primarily because of Israeli aggression. It would certainly be better for Israel to have peace and prosperity with the Palestinian people. But any leaders who ever told the Palestinians that somehow 'armed struggle' and threatening Israel with annihilation was going to advance their cause were either cynical or stupid. Given the mindset of the Zionists after 1945 such threats were taken quite seriously by the founders of Israel. It was never going to be a path to a Palestinian state. Anyone who promoted armed struggle against Israel as even part of the solution was harming the Palestinian cause in a very misguided way.

The Palestinians are indeed victims, but they are primarily victims of the resolving of the British mandate, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Fatah and its spin offs, Nasser, the Soviets, the Syrians and more recently the Iranians via Hezbollah (and now Hamas), the Muslim Brotherhood and Takfiri radicals (via Hamas and Saudi money) .

Palestinian moderates (Ashrawi comes to mind) were silenced long ago. But the outside world that claims to be friends of the Palestinian cause has done little to encourage practical progress in Palestinian society toward a position that would likely get them what they want and need.

They deserve better.





>>>>>>>>>>>>yes the rockets are terrorism and should be stopped but Israels response is appalling.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>This is what amazes me. I am all for a Palestinian state, but totally against indescriminate bombing. What would you have Israel do? Just lob dumb bombs indescriminantly into Gaza near schools and places when kids and families are coming and going? Just to keep it 'completely even?' That's ridiculous. Wars would last lifetimes as this one probably will.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>No thats not whaht I'm saying.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I don't think the founders of Israel would be very proud of the way it behaves today. Israel has a clear choice how it uses very accurate weapons and it has chosen to inflict heavy civilian casualties to teach them a lesson. Probably the Hamas terrorists are largely untouched and will be back.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I agree. They can go house to house and weed the bad guys out risking their life and those of the civilians that are willfully or forcefully inhabiting these homes. Either way Isrealis can't win in the eyes of the world, like you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>BTW: North Korea is now beating their war drums too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090201/ap_on_re_as/as_koreas_tension
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ok. prez. Obama your up to bat. Show us what you can do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The Israelis can't win because they keep using the same old policies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>They could try getting all settlements out of the West Bank and opening up the borders of Gaza and the west bank to allow trade and some sort of economic revival there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's so simple. You're a genius.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yeah, businesses will really get booming when the suicide bombers start arriving...
>>>>>
>>>>>And your solution is ?
>>>>
>>>>Maybe the "international community" that feels so qualified to criticize Israel for doing what it thinks is necessary for national survival could put some pressure on the Palestinians to renounce Hamas which currently is committing atrocities against Fatah loyalists in Gaza that would have any one of them applying for asylum at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib but which seems to get a pass from the passionate defenders of "human rights".
>>>>
>>>>Or perhaps the UN could set a quota for the number of suicide bombers or missiles the Israelis should turn the other cheek for.
>>>>
>>>>They ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore.
>>>
>>>Well a whole lot of Palestinians voted for Hamas and they must have had a reason for doing do. I would say one reason is that the way Israel treated Fatah (yes I know Arafat was an idiot) didn't make the Gazans feel they where best represented by them. the cynic in me would say that for reasons of its own Israel was quite happy to see Gaza and the West bank split politically and Fatah rendered weaker.
>>
>>Yes, they did indeed vote for Hamas and therefore bear a great deal of responsibility for the continuing the uninterrupted kakistocracy that has ruined the lives of Palestinians for 50 years. Arafat wasn't an idiot - he was a corrupt, vicious thug who never put the interests of the Palestinian people ahead of his own self-agrandizement and greed. His persistence in power says more about the cultural breakdown in Palestinian society than it does about interaction with Israel. But compared to Hamas - which is completely dominated by ideologues who are used as political pawns by Takfiri zealots in other countries who would strap bomber belts to every Palestinian if they could - the current incarnation of Fatah are Swedish social democrats.
>>
>>I disagree that Israel prefers this fractured state of Palestinian "authority" . It is like trying to 'make peace' with Somalia. They know that as long as Hamas undermines Fatah there is no hope for a solution.
>>
>>And the sheer craziness and death wish of the Palestian political mind is now completely apparent. This latest 'intifada' is going to make Netanyahu PM very soon. He has not a drop of ambivalence about how far he is willing to go. I don't think that is going to be good for peace or for Palestine, but it may be what will finally be the tipping point in Palestinians realizing that attempting to threaten Israel's survival - even in bombastic Arab rhetoric -is absolutely the worst thing they can do to get what they want.
>>
>>A Gandhi in Palestine in 1948 would have had American Jews sending money to build a Palestinian state by 1950. The Palestinian people deserve better leaders than they have ever had.
>
>
>It is kind of convenient wash-up ; Blame it all on 'kakistocracy' !
>You actually expected Pallestinians to build society dominated by moderates in conditions they lived in past 60 years ???
>
>I find this standpoint/tirade of yours quiet cynical. I know from first hand experience (Milosevic) how resilent 'kakistocracies' can be
>once they get grip on power, while you of all (considering your background) should know how dictators/regimes are installed, preserved and then if necessary disposed...
>
>I can agree on Arafat role and guilt, but I can't really put much blame on Pallestinian population itself.
>Of course, there is part of responsability on behalf of society and mentality itself, but I can't really judge them to harshly.
>
>Moderate society can be built in moderate conditions, and even then there is no guaranty for sucess.
>(For instance; What prevented SaudiA to build democratic moderate society ? )
>Do you remember any period in the past 60 years where life was anything like normal for Pallestinians ?
>
>Nothing good has happened to this people ever, for them to know any better.
>All they know are refugee camps, violence, massacres, repression, targeted killings etc.
>I don't wanna go way to graphic here, but what was done to them in the past and
>especially lately with this Gaza situation, is beyond any sane brain comprehension,
>(You can google it yourself if your stomach can take it) and you still think they strap bombs
>around themselves or shoot mortar shells because they are religious zealots ??
>
>Iran might have their agenda and the arm here, but would they be all that sucessfull in promoting
>it if there was not for Lebanon and this latest Gaza war ?
>All I can see is, that Israel politicians and policies did 'zealots' and extremists great deal of favour in
>last couple of years. I just don't understand why. Looks like Israeli hardliners are building their own chairs/purpose
>for quiet a long time to come.
>
>BTW What ever happened to modarates in Israel ?? Are they ever going to win any ellections ?