>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Well put.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The news yesterday said that the markets have not lost this much after a new president has taken office in over 90 years. But Obama has made it pretty clear that he hates Wall Street, so this really shouldn't come as any surprise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lol
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dow heading for huge one-day gain - must be the effects of the new president ... :0
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>And as they chant at Football grounds "Its all gone quiet over there"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I don't expect the silence to continue. The whining is going to go on for 4 years or 8 years, no matter what Obama does.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I expect he'll just carry on manipulating the stock market on a day to day or even minute to minute basis. (probably for personal gain so he can invest in left wing groups seeking to overthrow the USA)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Yeah, he is trying to turn them into something as bad, socialist and as uncivilised as Europe! Darn, somebody better stop him!
>>>>>>>>>We have to stand up and fight, for our right - to gauge DowJones index and property prices as we want ! {g}
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Socialist" seems to be the current epithet of choice among American conservatives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Some of us have been using it for years...if the shoe fits and all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You wonder how much they understand about European socialism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Can't speak for others, but for myself I understand enough to know that I despise the entire concept as it goes against everything history has taught us about drive, ambition and the ability to achieve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Some of those countries are doing better than we are by about any measure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'll bite. Name some European countries that are doing better than America by about any measure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Take your pick of the Scandinavian countries for starters.
>>>>>
>>>>>Very difficult I think to measure this really. Quality of life, GDP , health care, defence budget, gun ownership to name a few. Almost impossible to come up with a measure everyone would agree with.
>>>>>
>>>>>But I would say that when the loony right describe Obama as a socialist. Well they have no idea what socialism is.
>>>>
>>>>Not sure I'd consider myself the loony right, lack of religion and all, but just in case this was even partially directed at me I'll take a shot.
>>>>
>>>>Technical definition : Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation.
>>>>
>>>>Marx's Slogan : "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
>>>>
>>>>Real World Example : The pilgrims of the Bradford colony. Contrary to the fantasy forced upon American children by a failed public education system, the harvest feasts which came to later be known as Thanksgiving were not bountiful, provided by Indians and better resembled the last meals of condemned men, who due to a socialistic system of colony governance were starving. In 1623 everything changed when governor Bradford abandoned the failed model and allowed each household a parcel of land upon which they would be able to keep or trade their bounty of their own choice. In 1623 the bounty of the colony was greater than ever and in 1624 they began exporting.
>>>
>>>
>>>And how is this related to calling Obama a socialist. Is he advocating nationalisation of any industry (apart from the collapsing ones).
>>>Is a massive tax increase for high earners taking place ?
>>
>>The major banks are effectively nationalized. The Treasury forced most lending institutions to accept TARP money regardless of need and now the congressionally mandated conditions are starting to rear their ugly head. While I believe companies like Citi have no say since they begged for the money, many others were force-fed the cash by the federal government. Now they too must abide by the whims of a hypocritically puffed-up congress.
>>
>>In addition he is advocating an overhaul of the health industry and while many may look to the televised-come-together meetings and see great promise, I look to the already enacted legislation passed in the unread stimulus bill which sets up a central database of all our medical treatments which will be tracked and examined for best-practices by the newly created National Coordinator of Health Information Technology. This new bureaucracy will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor does what they deem appropriate and cost effective. Furthermore, in order to deter doctors from operating outside the electronically delivered protocols the bill creates the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research. Currently medicare pays for treatments deemed safe and effective but the stimulus bill has applied a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council.
>>
>>Either he's a socialist or he's freely allowing the socialists in Congress to run roughshod over him. Either way, we lose.
>
>Thats a long way short of socialism Jake.

We're a couple steps closer than we were just a few short months ago. The federal government currently controls around 25% of US GDP add in health care for all and by current numbers that number rises to 43%. And this is before the bulk of the baby boomers retire and start collecting.

>The bank bailout ? What was the alternative. Allowing all those banks to collapse . What would happen then. We live in a sophisticated society where we take a lot of things for granted. Imagine not being able to get cash to buy things from anywhere. All trade coming to a halt. Food Fuel etc. The alternative maybe set up a state bank with basic facilities.

For starters :
1) Force Lehman into a sale instead of letting a petty personal grievance get in the way and assist the buyer (just like Bear)
2) Force AIG and Citi into a sale and assist the buyer (just like Bear)

Bailouts create "zombies" to use the phrase that pays. Lingering institutions lumbering on under the weight of their massive problems. AIG is going to cost another $60-120 billion before all is said and done, to say nothing of the future interest. We'd have been better off assisting a healthy buyer.

3) Do not force all lending institutions to take the bailout cash. Not all needed it despite the rhetoric. I thought this was a free country? Yet there were the financial titans of Washington forcing private entities into a deal with the devil (Congress).

4) Do not bail out car manufacturers, mortgage lenders, homeowners, anyone. Period!

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4a) Do not bailout Freddie/Fannie before or again now : http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Freddie-Mac-seeks-308B-in-US-apf-14610898.html
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5) Accept and suffer the consequences (recession) of failed policy as a country.

6) Emerge a stronger economy and country due to lessons learned

In addition it would help if TaxCheat secretary of Treasury actually had a plan to present when he said he would. Instead of appearing to make it up on the fly before Congress.

Of course if you want to go back further :
1) Don't pass the Community Reinvestment Act in 1977
or barring that
1a) Don't apply strict diversity quota's to a bank's CRA rating
or barring that
1b) Don't change the leveraging rules for Fannie and Freddie between 1997-2001 allowing them to jump wholeheartedly into subprime lending.
2) Don't overturn the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999
3) Don't allow traditional insurance methods to be applied to the Credit Default Swap market

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I guess I could've summed this up by suggesting :

A) Don't elect dunderhead socialist utopian twits to office in the United States of America. Allow them to dabble with failed social experiments in another country that isn't so critically important to the financial stability of the world.

But alas freedom means allowing people the freedom to fail.
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