>I *have* read Coopers book :-) I consider a really good guide to what one should strive for....but not what is necessarily attainable today.

I'm sorry, John. I somehow got the impression you said you hadn't.

As for what's "attainable," I think first we gotta agree on the "desirable" part. :)

>>>The concept of "saving" is deeply ingrained into the user psyche
>>
>>I beg to differ. :) It's ingrained into _current_ users' psyches. It's most definitely not ingrained into those of new users. And there will be a heck of a lot more new users than current users over time.
>
>Hmmm....I would dispute that. Office has "save". Even the modeless dialogs like the Control Panels have "OK" and "Apply" which are, essentially, saves.

First, that doesn't really address my point, which is that there are billions of users who haven't even been born yet who will come to computers with no conception of the relationship between a program and the file system. The familiarity argument doesn't hold for these people.

Second, I'd like to limit this (if I may) to the example of a text document. I do think that other apps need Save buttons (including those that we write). When you use a dialog, for example, I think OK and Cancel (and Apply, which is really something different in this context) are necessary. You're not going to be working in a dialog box for a long time, creating lots of data that 99% of the time you want to save, after all. Furthermore, just as in a database app, you generally want to create a set of changes, that may be dependent on each other. Finally, these buttons do more than save or discard changes; they also close the "app." I'm really focusing on the situation where you close Word and it asks you if you want to keep the work that you just spent three hours on.

Did you ever use 1-2-3? If so, you'll remember that quitting was a four keystroke operation (I can't remember the exact keys): / F Q Y. :) The save confirmation was meaningless; you didn't even think about it.

>So......with an OK button, you have a "save". Different name, same result.

Right. As I've said, I believe in Save buttons for database apps, especially multiuser apps (which could be any of them). I didn't start out thinking this way, but was convinced by some folks on VFOX (which hopefully shows that I'm not as bullheaded as I might seem:).

>> Frankly, I do the same thing but I usually do EOR (Edit on Request) with an button. With critical data, I want the user to be aware that they are entering into the potential to change data.<<

I think my users are aware by the fact that the row of buttons at the bottom of the dialog (I hate toolbars for this purpose) suddenly disappear, to be replaced by OK and Cancel. I think this is preferable to leaving the number of buttons the same, but enabling/disabling some of them (and I think Cooper may disagree).