>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yes I do - but I married into a family which were not very observant - Shabbos is very peaceful if you follow the spirit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>But then it its necessary to earn a living and this is more important than pure observance - that's why orthodoxy is now in a minority
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>See what I wrote here: message #1420300
>>>>>>>>>>>>Apparently even nowadays an orthodox way of living is a luxury?!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I think that non-orthodox way of living is more a matter of convenience than a necessity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>That's an interesting difference in pov. As I understood from my father, only the more wealthy jews could afford:
>>>>>>>>>>1) not working on sabbath
>>>>>>>>>>2) eat only kosjer food
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Admitted, that was 80-90 years ago, here in Amsterdam. Times have changed. But it might still be the case. Perhaps not in your city, but in other places, yes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I don't think it was a matter of social inequality. I cannot say for Amsterdam, but in schtetl environment Sabbat observation was quite universal. Naturally, our days, when 5-day workweek is very common and kosher food is available in supermarkets, it is even more difficult, in my opinion, to find income lines in this issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Kosher food in supermarkets? Unknown to me. In the Netherlands you have to live in one of the few jewish neighboorhoods to get kosher food. I guess that's one of the main reasons why orthodox jews live together in a jewish neighboorhood.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, I actually wanted to tell the same to Ed. In NY, where he lives, there are many kosher stores and some supermarkets have kosher sections. In Milwaukee, there is only one kosher store (quite small) and with not very convenient hours of operation. Some supermarkets have sections of kosher food - in some of them these sections are bigger (there more Jews live), in some smaller or no at all. So, to find kosher food in a such place may become a challenge. I'm sure in some states / places it's almost impossible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I apologize. Being non-observant person I can hardly judge this kind of inconveniences.
>>>>>>However, it is my understanding that kosher principles are not made in supermarkets, it's more of willingness to follow, i.e. you may not get glatt kosher food, but you could still be able to get 'rudimentary kosher' by buying in regular supermarket and applying common kosher rules.
>>>>>
>>>>>No to your last point - food is either Kosher or it's not
>>>>
>>>>I respectfully disagree. There are some foods obviously non-kosher, some foods safely kosher, and some food with questionable, i.e. unknown status. It means, imo, that a person can rely on commonsense too, besides rules. Also, failing kosher rules is not considered a crime, it is a failure that can be cured.
>>>
>>>I respectfully disagree - the only food that is kosher is kosher food - no half measures - you could go vegetarian or eat which of an allowable species - wow this takes me back to my days when I was teaching Jewish law to people converting mainly from Christianity
>>
>>It is very different situation by the law. Converts are required by law to be more kosher that any Jew, any failure and they are out. The same law allows to a Jew much wider latitude in food and other issues, i.e. failing to observe kosher doesn't reduce or even abolish Jewish identity. It may sound unfair, but it is the law. It may indicate certain compromise, i.e. Moses probably expected Jews to get in gray area situations where food definitons could become questionable and, accordingly, subordinate to more important issues where identity is on stake.
>
>Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't God offer the Talmud to all nations, and all refused except that some people inside those nations did not refuse so they were allowed to reincarnate in order to be given the opportunity to convert? Doesn't the Talmud have strict laws on the treatment of converts and converts must be loved and cannot be mistreated? Wasn't Rabbi Akiva the son of converts? Wasn't Unkelos a convert? My understanding was that anyone converted must commit themselves to the full Torah and keep the Seven Laws of Noah and if they do, they must be treated as one who was born to a mother descended by maternal lineage (or is maternally descended of a full convert) from those who stood at Mount Sinai. The requirement to commit themselves to the full Torah and keep the Seven Laws of Noah seems to distinguish them from those descended by maternal lineage (and may be why some people in the world would convert but do not due to the strict dietary rules for converts.)

Talmud is a set of commetaries to Mishna, the latter is a commentary to Tanakh, and only the latter (actually, one third of it,called Torah) was offered to people; to Jews only. They could tell something to other people, though it was not necessarily intended this way.
Talmud has many rules that were accepted as laws, because they are derived from Torah and in many situations derivative way was long and intricate. I don't think that the idea about converts being loved and not mistreated is accentuated much. Actual idea is somewhat different. According to the main idea, God chose Jews for trials, not for welfare. Accordingly, a convert should be tried in the most rigid way, just to eliminate possible mistake on his/her part that joining Jews may somehow result in welfare achivement. Please, understand that trial means nothing physical. It just means complete compliance to all commandements (IIRC, exact number is 613), i.e. something hardly achievable by native Jew, the latter may fail almost every commandement and still be a Jew. It is all based on secular reasons, btw: joining Jews rarely promised any priviliges, in earthly sense, at least; and from religious point of view, it is not a big bargain too: Judaism has no concept of paradise, except one that was strictly closed to humans after God discovered first property theft.