>>>>>>>>Doesn't seem to be any proof (or even claim) that he did enter illegally?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>However if one is in the country illegally then I believe the burden of proof should be on the individual as to how he came to be *in* the country. It would not be an unfair presumption that at some point he entered and therefore ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So you advocate 'presumption of guilt' ?
>>>>>
>>>>>Not at all. But if one first has proven he is *in* the country illegally there must be grounds for that. That means he either entered illegally or did something since to change the legality of his status i.e. the proof of the "entry" would depend on the proof used for the determination of the illegality of his current presence.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry, can't follow the bit after the 'i.e' - smells like a circular argument tho :-}
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But I would hope the judge's reasoning is that he is interpreting the law strictly as written and that is good in that it points out how sloppy "lawmakers" are when writing laws to begin with and not reasoning their logical conclusions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But if I suddenly were arrested by German police and they found I was not in Germany legally I don't think they would assume I had somehow spontaneously generated in Germany but there would be a presumption that at some point I "entered" Germany. <g>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In practice, both in Germany and the U.S., whether either or both ''entering' or 'being present' are designated as 'criminal' is probably irrelevant. The only realistic course of action is deportation (or not) - a custodial sentence would certainly be self-defeating....
>>>>>
>>>>>I agree. I have no desire to incarcerate anyone for the "crime" of illegal entry or presence. It would actually seems more logical if reciprocal treaties allowed for incarcerating/fining or whatever repeat offenders in the home country after deportation, but of course that is not going to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>>I believe the EU arrangement makes the issue moot within the EU and I see a big problem in that if Spain, for example, chooses not to control its borders that leaves Belgium ( or GB ) wide open.
>>>>
>>>>Economic migration from N. Africa into Spain and to Italy from, for example, Albania has been a problem already.
>>>>
>>>>>No immigration laws have any teeth whatsoever without border control.
>>>>
>>>>Strictly enforced employment rules would help......
>>>>
>>>>Personally I think it's great that border controls in mainland EU countries have virtually ceased to exist. Last summer, whilst cycling along the Belgian/French border, I stopped at a small, empty bar. Sitting outside I suddenly recognized the village as being where I'd often crossed the border years before. Back then there were queues of trucks waiting for customs clearance, full blown passport control and the bar was always crowded. Now - nothing. I went back to the Belgian side of the border and, sure enough, still rusting away in the hedge was the old 'Customs/Douane' sign - otherwise I might have thought I'd imagined it......
>>>
>>>Agree on both counts. Demand for cheap labor will act as a magnet for disadvantaged people to take terrible risks. Employers are responsible. A guest worker program ( which in order to work takes a controlled border ) would help everyone except the exploiters. I would be quite happy if every "illegal" currently working (and not committing crimes) in the US were given a work visa which would be renewed once a year. Failure to do so would result in permanent deportation. There would be no incentive not to comply. The workers would have every protection and responsibility of any other legal resident of the US. Meanwhile, close the border down and be generous with further work visas. Employers who wanted the workers could recruit in the home country and visas would be arranged for entry.
>>>
>>>BTW, I have some relatives that came to America when John D Rockefeller decided he'd be more comfortable hiring English Freemasons than "foreigners" and recruited in Wiltshire and Bedford for the Standard Oil Company, then headquartered in Cleveland. ( a major suburb of Cleveland is now called Bedford )
>>>
>>>EU definitely makes travel in Europe cool ( and I'm sure the convenience for commercial traffic is great ) Our own "federation" is the model. But we are also the model for the problems that have to be dealt with as part of it. If there are people in the US who shouldn't be here, they didn't *enter* the country in Kansas.
>>
>>What do you know? I have no problem with your guest worker program. That marks a clear line in the sand between those who are currently living here (with their kids especially) and those who have yet to cross the border. Not that the latter group will stop, because they won't, but we can make it more difficult.
>>
>>The only revision I would make is to allow more legal immigration. There's plenty of room here. With a few common sense rules we can certainly accommodate them, and the anti-immigrant Americans as well. Starting with very limited social services, such as emergency medical care in life and death circumstances. It won't be any rose garden for them. It never has been for immigrants. They make the decision that it's the best thing to do despite an expected period of hardship. To turn them away -- with military force in the view of some -- or deport millions of people. some of whom have never lived anywhere else, is tiny hearted IMO. We are a better country than that.
>
>Immigration to the U.S. changed long before you or I were born. Even in its heyday, Ellis Island did not let everyone in. Look up "HeartBreak Island" or "The Island of Tears." After the Immigration Act of 1924 only displaced persons and war refugees were allowed into the U.S. After that it became mostly a detention and deportation center.

God, you are so eager to find the worm in the apple. I never said there is a history of letting immigrants in freely. There has not been. What I am saying is we face extraordinary circumstances now, a huge wave of immigrants right on our border. (Which used to be their land, I mention only in passing). Surely we can let our blown gaskets cool off enough to find a reasonable solution.