>>>>>>>>Helen Thomas is probably a little senile but her ability to be an apologist for a thug like Arafat predates any senility.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Of course a real argument could be made that in 1945 real justice would have involved giving the Jews all of Germany and let the Europeans figure out what to do with the Germans.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is somewhat simillar to the points that your good friend Ahmadinejad is trying to argue. {g}
>>>>>>>Would you expand little bit more on this ? ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Okay, you've exposed me as an Iranian sympathizer and stooge for the mullahs <g>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Obviously my remark was hyperbolic, but there is some logic to the idea that true justice, in 1945, would have been for Germany to pay for a crime so vast as to be almost unimaginable. ( granted what happened in the final days of the war on the Eastern Front came close to Biblical vengeance but that didn't do the Jews much good )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Purely on the basis of reparations, not in terms of fulfilling Talmudic promises, the Jews, it could be argued, were entitled to Germany as a homeland. Seldom has a people had more right to justice in the face of state-sponsored atrocity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have a great deal of sympathy for all the people who lived in Palestine prior to 1948 but I have nothing but contempt for all those who could not see the foundation of Israel as more than a zero-sum game.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A collaboration of the Zionists, the Lebanese and the Arab people living in Palestine could have resulted in a properous and sucessful environment for all to thrive. I guess Lebanon's attempt at confessionalism shows how difficult that would have been, but as the ultimate destruction of Lebanon points out it is manipulation of internal tensions from the outside that is the biggest threat to the melding of people who otherwise might have common interests in cooperation succeeding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Popular movements are interesting in that the biggest danger is that they be co-opted by the worst elements of the oppressed group. Never has this been better demonstrated than in the case of the PLO ( or Habash's faction ) with the possible exception of the Provos.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There should have been a Palestine in the 50s but it was prevented because other "leaders" in the area found the chaos more to their benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Charles
>>>>>
>>>>>You don't share the view that the origins of WWII where in the settlement after WW1 and that modern Germany is a testament to the enlightened peace settlement of 1945 then .
>>>>
>>>>The Versailles Treaty certainly made Germany fertile for fascism, which was quite popular and respectable all over the world at the time - Italy, Britain, the US - but I think the success of Hitler's expansionism was only made possible by American indifference (and in some ways sympathy), British diplomatic blindness (and in some cases sympathy) and French military pusillanimity (and in some cases sympathy), not to mention Stalin's ...well, being Stalin. In that sense I blame the war itself on both sins of commission and sins of omission.
>>>>
>>>>The truly nasty, evil nature of the racial policies, however, had to be enabled by the culture - not unique to Germany certainly ( vis Poland, France, Russia and less as policy but more as small-minded malice in the US and Britain ) but melded with a particular German efficiency and top-down mind-set and carried out, enabled and eagerly facilitated by a large enough portion of the society to stain that society in a way that is unique.
>>>>
>>>>Instigating wars can be "forgiven" as madness resulting from greed, hubris whatever. They are always stupid and often evil and represent a human failure. But the Holocaust was evil on a scale that was something different. It can never be forgiven or excused for any reason.
>>>
>>>Nope. But I'm not sure it forgives all of Israel's actions, either. Three of the world's leading religions have historic ties to that land and Israel's attitude has always been "It's all ours." And they seem to be even more belligerent with Netanyahu back in charge. Israel under Netanyahu reminds me of the U.S. under Bush -- not giving a damn what anyone thinks. That relief boat thing a couple of weeks ago was taking things pretty far.
>>
>>Just want to point out that while Jerusalem has long been a holy city for Jews and Christians, it isn't really one for Muslims. (Nor are Mecca and Medina holy to non-Muslims.) That doesn't mean there aren't sites of importance to Islam in Jerusalem, just not at all at the same level as for Jews and Christians.
>>
>>Tamar
>
>
>I thought it was because orf Al Akhsa (sp?) (dome of the rock mosque).. where Muhammed sprang into heaven on his white charger....

It is often called the third-holiest site in Islam for that reason, but the Ascent is only mentioned once in the Quran and that reference to Jerusalem is somewhat vague. (Surah 17.1) The detailed stories ( with Buruq the white charger etc ) are in the Hadith - the post Quran traditions and so sort of fall into that area where in Christianity we find tales of St. Anne, Mother of Mary.

I've been inside the Al-Aqsa mosque by the way. Actually a different mosque than the Dome of the Rock ( the post-card picture which is even more beautiful than its pictures ) but they are right there together and I think the whole temple mount is often referred to as Al-Aqsa.

Like Aya Sofia in Istanbul both building have had a flexible history ( these two having be co-opted by the Crusaders at one time ) but the Dome of the Rock is one of the oldest mosques in the world.