As the bumper sticker put it: "Thou Shalt Not Kill/Includes Your Enemies." I suspect we all have things worth dying for, the only question being "was it worth it?"

Hank

PS: the case can, and has been made -- by US Military strategists including Petraeus -- that we messed up in Vietnam, Irag and Afghanistan because we focused on killing the enemy, rather than protecting the public and providing them with better lives. While everything is open to interpretation at some level, any discussion of these wars has to begin with the analyses of those who have the most to lose by bucking the system.

>>There is certainly no end of atrocities about which I would hope we would all share outrage. Outrage by itself, at least for me, is not a convincing argument to abandon my principles.
>
>Outrage is OK. Principles are OK.
>
>When your principles get your countrymen, friends, family, and yourself killed or enslaved, I hope they were worth it.
>
>That is why the US is on a downward spiral - we (collectively) don't have the guts to do what is required to survive anymore.
>
>People like Tamar want lawyers on the battlefield to make sure our bad soldiers don't harm the poor misguided youth terrorists that they face.
>
>My outlook is a little different - I think we should kill them in the cheapest way possible. Otherwise we lose, just like we lost in Vietnam and are losing in Iraq (defeat from the jaws of victory) and Afghanistan (and will in the rest of the world over time).
>
>
>>
>>>>Well, you've got the Dutch guys, who tend to be pretty liberal, and I fit in pretty well with them. These days, one is often described as the loonie left if one believes that no one should starve while others eat, no one should die from inadequate medical care while others receive it, no one should freeze to death or die of heat stroke while others have shelter. Period. Working or not, immigrant or not, documented or not, addicted or not, criminal or not. My principle is simple: we are all equal in our humanity, ..snip..
>>>
>>>I disagree.
>>>
>>>http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/06/15/obaid.suicide.children/index.html?hpt=C2
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>That said, I don't see any benefit in either side labeling the other, or issuing invectives -- I try to save my invectives for when my apps blow up. <s>
>>>>
>>>>Hank
>>>>
>>>>>>>>When? Why?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'd say he asked for it message#1468806
>>>>>>
>>>>>>More likely the language in this one: Message #1468721
>>>>>>
>>>>>>He posted to me after that that he knew he would be banned. I find it funny that he then turned around and petitioned Michel to ban him outright. His post in 1468721 should have done that. I cannot believe it did not. It would have banned anyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll be the only loony leftie on here at this rate. Better watch my mouth (or typing)