>>>>>>>>>http://www.gallup.com/poll/147881/Americans-Divided-Taxing-Rich-Redistribute-Wealth.aspx.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I'll admit it's not 100%, but 71% qualifies as an overwhelming majority.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>;)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Since when do americans understand the word socialism? :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am an American and understand socialism better than you will ever know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And far far better than anyone wants to know too... :o) I've seen many variations of socialism first-hand -- the worst was East Germany of course when I was there, but there are many countries (back in the 80s and still today) with varying degrees of socialism. There is a balance that must be achieved when you go down that route.... the mindset of the people even changes after years of it -- so many "oh no you can't do that here."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There are some success stories that could be loosely defined as socialist like Sweden and Norway. The first thing I noticed when I spent time in modern socialist countries was the increase in so many "mandatory" things... it's really more (IMHO) programs that aim to provide aid and services to financially unstable citizens. The primary difference between those programs in those countries and here is that it has always failed here. I'm still for having Norway set up and run our healthcare. :o) Now that ought to start an argument :o)
>>>>
>>>>This is exactly what I meant with the redefinition of the word socialist. No european would call countries like Sweden and Norway socialist countries. They have social democracies, but have barely any resemblence to what we have known as socialist countries, like the one you lived in.
>>>>
>>>>>There are, as you said, different shades of socialism. They may have a temporary success (even for a number of years) but in the end they all will lead to a total socialism where the government will mandate everything.
>>>>
>>>>Eh, there I think you are wrong. The past few decades, the governments just got out of formely state owned companies. This is a trend all over europe. The energy, phone, mail markets all have been privitised. Up here in holland even healthcare has been privatised for a large part. To be honest, I can't even think of any market that is owned by the state. Only barebone things like police and military.
>>>>
>>>>>Walter said (paraphrasing) that "shouldn't poor people have the same health care as rich". So they bring up Obama care. Then they will say, shouldn't poor people eat as well as rich. And they will create a "fair" :) food distribution. And shouldn't poor people live in the same nice houses as rich. And they will nationalize private property. They will not stop on healthcare.
>>>>
>>>>Wrong, the trend is actually the opposite, however there are a lot of regulations that force commercial companies to deliver products that meet a certain minimum criteria. I believe in capitalism, but not to the extent that we leave the unhealthy and the unluck behind.
>>>>And any way your cut it, you already have social healthcare (medicare and mediaid), but that system is getting so expensive and is performing so poor that an overhoal is absolutely neccesary. Obama had only the choice to live with the current status qou or change.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Take Spain for example. I have been following a blog of a Spanish nurse (she is in her 40s so she has been in the system for good deal of time). She says that the healthcare system in Spain is going down the drain. And the unemployment in Spain (I believe) is over 20% and things are not getting any better. Of course the socialists on UT will say that this is all Bush's fault :).
>>>>
>>>>Well, I'm a liberal (on the right wing here in holland), and I wonder who you're pointing to if you're saying socialist. I know you've lived under socialism (or actually communism) but I don't think you have any clue of what the political climate is in the large part of europe.
>>>>and I do think that you don't know anything about the about absense influence of your definition of socialism here. I do think that your allergy of the word socialism is blinding you from the reality what 'social' actually means up here.
>>
>>>You see, you just proved that you don't know what you are talking about. I have never lived under communism. I have - had to - studied all though my school and college years what is and is not socialism and communism. This ends the discussion.
>>
>>I was assuming, given your name and claim that you originally lived in eastern europe under the rule of communism. sorry for making that mistake.
>>
>>OTOH, if you're really believing that what you're saying than its far worse than I thought.
>>
>>>You may call yourself a capitalist but your ideas and aspirations are not just liberal but socialistic.
>>
>>I'm a social capitalist (google that one). the problem with you is that there is you're, like many americans, believing as long as the word social is mentioned you'll end up in a communistic government a'la the USSR. The allergy to that word is so strong that you don't even try to understand the principles that europe is building itself onto, despite the overwhelming fact that europe nowadays is doing far better than the US on all kinds welfare of statistics, including some leading economical as well.
>>
>>You're insisting that the economical situation of spain can be projected onto the whole of europe and the problem is rooted in 'socialism'. Ignorant and dumb are the best words to describe such thinking. Europe's economy is bigger than the US, the euro has risen from $0.85 to $1.40 which indicates that confidence in europe is only getting bigger. It has the most competitive markets and is the biggest exporter in the world.
>>
>>About every Scandinavian and a few others like Germany, and the Netherlands country in Europe is eclipsing the US on about any imaginary statistics, socially and economically.
>>
>>>You very much remind me of the well-educated, very smart, upper-middle class Russian intelligentsia of the beginning of the 20th century. Most of them, if you know the history, died by the order of Stalin, the leader they all so loved. Just like you they were very good at twisting words and facts; and accusing people of not knowing and not understanding how just and fair the socialism will be for the masses. They ended up with a bullet in the head.
>>
>>Blah... We don't believe in leaders. Everyone up here who, as we say, put their head above others, will see their head chopped off. Totally uncomparable situation, and just another prove that you actually know nothing about the political arena up here in europe; you just don't have a clue. Their are no totalitarian states here anymore; they will never return because the market is too strong.
>>
>>And I don't believe in Marx and Lenin, as they ruined the initiatives of common man and made them slave of the collective. I do believe in freedom and equal opportunities for EVERYONE. I do believe that everyone is, to a certain extent, responsible for their own well being. But that does not go that far as leaving the other, who is less fortunate in their lives, behind as useless on the streets (And we all know how that increases crime). I do not believe that a such great gap between the rich and poor can be beneficial to society.
>>
>>I suggest you google upon the words: 'Economy europe vs US' and learn, in stead of believing in what you want to believe. There is a world outside the US that looks different, but because it ain't US, does not mean its inferior.
>>
>>Dmitry, do youself a favour and deepen yourself into a subject before you go into discussion. From what you have posted here is typical of the self sustained myths, because it would hurt too much to admit that the phrase 'We are the best nation on earth' is simply not true anymore. Facing that fact is painful, but more and more people in the US come to that same conclusion.
>
>I don't have time to Google all day to twist and manipulate, as you do. I have to work. I have family and kids. You, of course, have your communist and socialist ideas and that is all you have. If you are so happy in Europe, fine, live there good luck to you. My bigger question is, what motivates you to spend most of your time in a north-american message board. And I sure know the answer to that. But talking to you is like pissing against the wind; you only listen to yourself.

Dmitry,

I follow this thread, without commenting it. I was looking forward to read your comment to Walter's message. It's sad to read that you are not able to come up with a decent reply. But I understand that you are busy doing your thing against the wind.