I disagree with your points. Firstly, I don't use Form Designer at all (so it would be appropriate to ask about it before making your assumptions). Please, don't make some wrong assumptions here again. Actually, I use class designer and instanciate objects (including forms) programmatically, and BTW it's not workaround, it's mainstream way. Basically, there is no such thing as visual instanciation. Form Designer is just a way to tell VFP how all/some components of form's container will be instanciated in run-time and again the plain fact that toolbar is not part of form's container is a real reason why you cannot use it here. I still cannot figure out what functionality or manipulation (visual) you cannot produce in class designer.

>Edward,
>
>Let me word it in a different way. If Visual FoxPro provides a
>VISUAL "anything", in this case a TOOLBAR, then in addition to being
>able to visually manipulate that "anything" through the Class Designer,
>Visual FoxPro should provide the ability to VISUALLY instance that
>"anything" and manipulate/design it.
>
>That is what you and I do when we VISUALLY create a form class,
>VISUALLY instance it, and then we use the Form Designer to VISUALLY
>manipulate and design the instance.
>
>I only used the Forms Designer because, actually, Visual FoxPro
>treats toolbars as forms, so I am not wrong to have done that in
>the first place, as you infer ! And that is the reason why
>there is "seemingly" no "Visual Designer Tool" to allow you and
>me, once we have created a Toolbar class, to then be able to go
>and VISUALLY design an "instance" of that class.
>
>Therefore, since we both know that formsets are not necessary
>for toolbars, the Forms Designer, Visual FoxPro's current primary
>tool for VISUALLY designing an "instance" of a toolbar class,
>should not force the designer to include that instance into a
>formset.
>
>Alternatively, we should have a Toolbar Designer tool like we
>have a Menu Designer and a Form Designer tool !
>
>Michel.
>
>================ Your message follows =======================
>
>>Michel,
>>
>>Unfortunately, I have to make a conclusion that you don't understand me. I just can repeat that there is no any necessity to include toolbar to Form Designer. VFP complains against it, and it's absolutely right, because toolbar is not part of form container, and buttons, textboxes, etc. are part (might be) of this container. So, VFP reaction is natural and your approach is not. Again, there are no compelling reasons (but it doesn't mean that programmatic way is totally wrong) to use Add/Removeobject only. You can always make any visual manipulations opening toolbar class in Class Designer. If you want more, you can subclass either whole toolbar or its parts. If for some reason, you don't like it, well, I cannot help here.
>>