Uh, I actually do understand the difference between code generators and application frameworks. My reference to code generators was only to peg (SWAG) the beginning of the movement to tools that would reduce the amount of programmer effort needed.

>Hi Mike,
>
>none of what I have been discussing has anything to do with code generation. It's all about having the tool you use work with you at the right level of abstraction. Using Dynamic Types, e.g., removes a layer of complexity which, in this day of JITs (Lianja uses a JIT compiler), is not needed. Using a cursor that can be queried directly together with any other cursor removes a layer of complexity. Using declarative commands (USE theTable alias myTable) removes a layer of complexity. Dragging a group of fields on a "section" of the UI and getting a grid with the labels already filled in, removes a layer of complexity.
>
>IOW, it's about using the planning part of your brain, rather than the "deal with nuts and bolts of various sizes" part of your brain. The more you don't have to descend into "how do I build a custom LINQ query to handle this particular thing which would be so easy to do in SQL" the more you are working at a level that is directly productive. Staying at the level means staying in the flow. Now, there are many bright developers, probably a couple of standard deviations smarter than I am, who can go back and forth between levels without losing focus. "A man has to know his limitations," according to Dirty Harry, and so I have to choose my tools to work the way that works for me. But code generation isn't one of those tools.
>
>Hank
>
>>I don't disagree with any of that. But as I just replied to Hank, in fact demand for software developers remains very high. We haven't been replaced by machines yet.
>>
>>>>I have to go along with Tom here. The thought that code generators will replace programmers has been around for a LONG time, like since the early 1980s. Yet software development remains one of the most in-demand professions. (The tricky bit is that the specific skills that are in demand keep changing).
>>>
>>>Mike, See hanks reply, This is not about code generators, but an application framework that will take away the pain we currently have from dealing with all kinds of 3rd party add ons. Jos Pols wrote a message about this a few days ago (though his remarks apply to windev). the framework deals with the stuff we have to program manually for e.g. security, encryption, code signing, cross platform etc. Its much more productive if those matters are provided out of the box without have to scramble your own.
>>>
>>>Walter,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi Tom,
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't think this about programmers, but rather about productivity. In the old days we were busy to scrape out every cycle of the CPU and worrying about the physical storage of data. This is not an issue anymore for the majority of apps. Nowerdays we are much more worried about making your app available through different platforms (PC, Mac, Linux, Android, IOS), different browsers using cloud based computing and out of the box solutions to common problems, like security, encryption and a framework that is solution oriented, rather than just a huge number of classes that really no-one can fully understand, let alone to pick the rights classes for a given problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>We have to get out of the 3/4GL languages and gear up for the 5GL solutions which much more focusing on providing you solutions rather than providing you the language and classes to build the solution, iow, focus on what needs to be implemented, rather than how.
>>>>>
>>>>>Walter,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Walter;
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I can remember 20 years ago reading an article that programming by humans would not exist in ten years. I think the author was off by a few years, but I think that there will be less and less demand for programmers in the future. Just talk into your iPhone 10 and it will create an aplication for you. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>So how does .NET differ from, say, VFP ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It's in the philosophy of application. Either local compute, storage, communication, or remote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>So how do they differ ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The same choices are available for both platforms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Look ahead, Viv. It's in .NET's design. If you can't see it ... I can't help you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Why not?
>>>>>>>>>>>It's one of those things you either see and understand, or not.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>And there was me thinking that the idea of UT was that people who understand things can explain them to people who do not :-{
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It works sometimes. Not always. "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ah well. I've only been using .NET for 10 years - guess I don't know it well enough.
>>>>>>>>Perhaps you can give me an example of one think that .NET forces you to do that VFP does not ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I personally think that the days of programming everything yourself are numbered whether that is VFP or .NET. The future of developing database apps is much more in development environments like WinDev, Servoy, Lianja and others. Those application frameworks are much more productive as the provisions of e.g. cross platform, windows/browser development, support for tablet/smartphones, security, cloud based computing etc come out of the box. Sure there will be applications that are more suitable from ground up but I'm convinced the majority will be written in such application development platforms. And rather than worrying about the datatypes to keep the compiler happy, focus will be much more on the what? rather than how?