>>>>>>>>>>Many things that are today common practice would have been unimaginable just a few years ago. I'm telling you, in a few years down the road, you will have child offenders living their sexual preference and you are not allowed to judge them, because that would be discrimination.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Agreed. Look at the Boy Scouts in the US. They are being pressed by the press and the 'enlightened ones' to allow that now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Nonsense. You're implying that every gay man is a child molester. In fact, the incidence of child molesters is the same for gay and straight adults.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I didn't imply anything oh queen of the enlightened ones. You seem to have come up with the idea.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Then, what did you mean by following "in a few years down the road, you will have child offenders living their sexual preference and you are not allowed to judge them" with " the Boy Scouts in the US ... are being pressed by the press and the 'enlightened ones' to allow that now"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tamar
>>>>>
>>>>>The press and enlightened ones like you have been pushing to get god (and morality - part of the foundations of scouting) out of scouts, and now are pushing to have homosexuals placed in with the boys. Being competitive liberals, that of course won't be enough will it?
>>>>>
>>>>>The Boy Scouts as an organization is pretty much done for now because of this. Many troops have folded because they lost their charters (most are chartered through churches or other non-enlightened organizations). Opening the door by allowing openly homosexual scouts (kids 11-17 in an organization that disallows sexual activity during scouting activities) in guarantees that within a couple of years there will be many more suits as homosexuals try to get in a leaders of the boys (why?) - once that barrier breaks, the Boy Scouts will cease to exist.
>>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps the man-boy love scouts will be the replacement?
>>>>
>>>>IOW, you think that having gay leaders will lead to sexual abuse of children. I don't see how what you said can be interpreted any other way.
>>>>
>>>>That's such bs. You probably had gay teachers and gay leaders of extracurricular activities and never knew it. Pedophilia and homosexuality are not synonymous.
>>>>
>>>>Tamar
>>>
>>>>>Pedophilia and homosexuality are not synonymous.
>>>
>>>No, but they have one thing in common- having been a taboo.
>>>Homosexuality was once a taboo for scouts, but societal norms have changed and it is now accepted.
>>>Consensual sex between adults and children (if such a thing is possible) is still a taboo here in the US, but it is not in many other cultures and it has lots of precedence in our own.
>>>No one is sure but many think that Shakespeare's sonnets were written to one of the squeaky-voiced boys who played women in the Elizabethan theater before women were allowed on the stage (another taboo shattered!)
>>>One theory has the subject as young as 9 years old.
>>>
>>>If the greatest writer in our history can do it, why not a scoutmaster?
>>
>>Or a priest? Or a teacher? Or a family member (the most frequent culprit in molestation). But what's your point? That in no way speaks to sexual orientation.
>>
>>Gay boys are more vulnerable in some ways to pedophiles as they often lack any kind of role models and their very being is already a Big Secret but I certainly think the rate of heterosexual molestation must be magnitudes higher.
>>
>>Living in SF for 20 years in the 70s and 80s was a real eye-opener for me. Up until that time I had never, to my knowledge, known anyone to be gay - or at least anyone who was "out". As I acquired gay friends - and a few old friends came out - I started hearing the stories about what it was like to grow up gay. These were stories of the 50s and 60s and 70s so I'm sure the reality now is a little less horrible, but considering what that must have done to people's heads I was a little surprised so many of the gay men I knew were as "normal" and un-screwed up as they were. Sure, some of the repression created some pretty extreme characters (albeit in many cases very interesting ones) but knowing people who had been subjected to the kind of stuff they had just for being honest - or trying to be honest - with themselves about their internal reality was pretty heart-wrenching.
>>
>>Gay culture is of course in many ways influenced by the male take on sexuality but that never seemed to be more or less prone to pedophilia or to individuals not being able to behave in a civilized fashion. I think as gay kids are able to grow up less traumatized you are going to see the cultural differences between gay and "straight" culture diminish greatly ( I think we've already seen that happening)
>
>
>>> But what's your point?
>
>
>The Boy Scouts by definition discriminate against most of the people in the world based on gender and age.
>Based on the way the Scouts caved on this issue, I suspect that if NOW or the AARP really wanted to, they could raise enough of a stink and anyone would be able to join.
>
>I see nothing wrong with an organization saying it won't take gay people, short people, Albanians, tall people, computer programmers or any other kind of people, as long as it doesn't spend public money or tell me what I can or can't do outside that organization.
>In fact, I think it's a good idea, because I have a clear understanding of what that organization is all about.
>There are some golf clubs I can't join because my ancestors were Irish.
>They consider themselves exclusive and guess what ... they are.. they exclude people!
>That's OK with me. I took particular joy in beating guys from those clubs when I ran into them in college matches.
>
>Some fences should come down, but some should remain.
>
>I think Augusta National was right when it accepted black members but made a mistake by accepting women members.
>The basic idea of golf is four guys escaping from their wives and families for a few hours. The ball and all the other things are just there to give us an excuse. Black guys, Jewish guys, Korean guys, you name it.. maybe even gay guys ... 99% of them make great golf partners. Put a woman in the group and everything changes.
>
>It might be nice social fun, but it's not golf.
>
>All of sudden you have to start looking for a rest room out there.. come on!!!!

I actually agree about the issue of free-association in any private venue where those excluded are not asked in any way to subsidize such an association and that association has no unfair advantage in the public sphere.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a club that won't let me in (more fools they) and the idea of the Boy Scouts having the rule against gay scouts or leaders really seems okay to me provided the NEVER receive any special funding, recognition or support from the public sphere. Any organization that sponsors a troop or provides meeting space etc must have the same prohibitions and no public funding of any kind. (I'm pretty much against tax exemptions for any religious group so I'd even go that far with it.)

Of course it would be nice if there were a youth organization that was more inclusive and there should be and maybe it shouldn't be the Boy Scouts though it would be a shame as probably the gay scouts and leaders best appreciate the neckerchief and shorts. (yeah, I was an Eagle scout too - with the God and Country award, no less - and took a lot of grief for it in my working class Cleveland neighborhood where I think it was assumed the Boy Scouts were *already* gay :-)

But sure, a country club that only admits Ukranian men, 100% Aryan women over the age of 50, red-headed Irishmen who can pass a Gaelic fluency exam - hey, why not. Just don't make me pay for it.

Mensa is moderately exclusive and there is some value to being in an environment where even if you think somebody is a a$$hole you don't think he's a *stupid* a$$hole.

People have a right to be bigoted, exclusive, xenophobic or whatever they like, as long as they don't expect subsidy, deference ... or respect from others.