>>I actually do not question the concept of "born again" - the transcendental, transformative experience, the apprehending over the comprehending, the agape
>>
>>It is a part of the human condition that has been recognized in most cultures throughout history and while I do no pretend to be able to explain it, I can testify as to its reality.
>>
>>I only question a single cultural context laying exclusive claim to it.
>>
>>Believing in - or more accurately experiencing "God" is quite a different matter than believing the Bible or the literal truth of any other description by man of what cannot be described.
>>
>>Textual works of man whose validity is accepted because of self-validation by the text seems a kind of idolatry. The transcendental experience - which I have no doubt you had - is quite real. The cultural context you have chosen to see it in is a choice on a different level. I have not problem with such cultural frameworks as i think it may help to incorporated the experience into ones life for some people, but it is still a shadow on the wall of the cave. The words about it are just that - words. they are not the experience and I think the point at which man's pride interferes is exactly where that cultural "naming" comes in to play.
>>
>>But I think your reference to "By their fruit you shall know them" is right on point. The context in which the experience is interpreted is not important - the effect it has on the individual is how the experience is validated.
>>
>>I have always thought the Garden of Eden to be a beautiful metaphor of the fall from grace - the losing of the mysterios , the failure of agape to be the moment when man imposes his "knowledge" (including literal scripture) on the ineffable. The need to name things - and then to quibble about the names - which are by their nature inadequate.
>>
>>We are all just Blind Men trying to describe an elephant.
>
>That is every man until they are changed by God to be born again. Then they are no longer blind. Then they see.
>
>
>>I cannot say what cannot be said, but sounds can make us listen to the silence.
>>To enter the Kingdom of Heaven you must come as a little child.
>
>
>That passage means men must come to Jesus in the same way little children believe what you tell them -- they just accept it on faith.

Perhaps if you actually had the correct quote for the passage......: I assume you are referring to Mathew 18 - which reads:

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

If you must continually post this religious stuff at least get the scriptures right and quit taking obscure passages out of context.

>Best regards,
>Rick C. Hodgin
>
>
>>
>>
>>>>That sounds like a very good explanation and a very good definition of a Christian.
>>>>It also sounds like it has much more to do with behavior than with belief and I think that is good as well.
>>>
>>>You're getting closer! It is belief applied. And it comes from the change of heart in being born again. It is not a man's ability that does this. It's not a lot of study or learning or pumping iron or anything that man does, other than desiring truly to know the truth, and then seeking after the Truth, and finding it. It is then God who changes the man, alters his polarity, swaps his poles, redirects the compass of his life. It is called being "born again" because the man no longer operates only on what he has known throughout his entire life up until that point. He is now extended. He's made alive spiritually. He's able to understand things that were not possible before -- such as reading scripture and hearing God's voice in it. A man cannot do this. God's Spirit can. And it is only from within that spiritual understanding where we see the revamped behavior, the reshaping of the man into a Christ follower.
>>>
>>>Men who do not behave as Jesus did, are not Christians, no matter what they call themselves. A person who is born again is literally rewired. The entirety of their life will be changed. Forever.
>>>
>>>Being a Christian is not an organization. It's not a denomination. It's not a particular group. It is a relationship ... with Jesus. And nothing else.
>>>
>>>"You will know them by their fruit."
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Rick C. Hodgin
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You will know them individually, on a person by person basis, by how the individual acts, by their fruit, Charles.
>>>>>
>>>>>Just because a person identifies themselves as a "Christian" doesn't mean they are. They have to behave as Christ did. That is what the expression, "You will know them by their fruit" means. If they are behaving as Christ did, then they are Christians. If they are not behaving as Christ did, then they are not Christians, even though they call themselves by that name.
>>>>>
>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>Rick C. Hodgin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>You will know them by their fruit, Charles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You are absolutely correct. It is the reason women were denied the vote for the first 150 years of the republic, why the incidence of abuse of women has been so dreadfully high for so long and why so many women have lost faith in patriarchal institutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is also one of the reasons so many deny the "wisdom" of scripture and - more to the point - those who purport to speak for God by expressing their own interpretation of that scripture.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>By their fruit, we know them. Bitter fruit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>( In fairness, by all accounts there is no record of Jesus being a misogynist or of sharing the obsessions of so many of his followers. I share with you a love of what Jesus presented to the world. I weep for the legacy that was twisted by men who conceived of God as being in their own petty image. And in fairness to you, while I in no way share you literal interpretation of scripture or take on reality, I find it nice that you seem to focus on love so I think the essence of the message is there loud and clear )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Wanna know why the party that doesn't bow to the religious right does better with women?
>>>>>>>>http://www.salon.com/2013/07/02/christians_have_always_been_misogynists_partner/
>>>>>>>>(what is weirdly cool is that the web page actually has an ad for Liberty University on-line,
>>>>>>>>for those who read the quotes and say "Yeah, sounds about right ..." ) :-)