I haven't read a lot of this thread, so if I am duplicating someone elses contribution, I appolgize in advance.

I own 2 framework type product. Visual MaxFrame Pro, and Visual ProMatrix.

Drew Speedie calls MaxFrame a Framework rather than a "Application Generator". That appelation used to carry some pretty negative baggage, being fairly inflexible and many devalopers couldn't live with the staight jacket.

Today the better RAD tools (application generators if you wish) are far more flexible and offer an awful lot of prebuilt housekeeping stuff that is just fine for most projects without putting the developer in a box on the important stuff which would inhibit the developers sense of style.

I just acquired MaxFrame, so cannot speak authoritatively about it. I did note in Drew's presntation at the user group (where I won my copy in the raffle <g>)that some of the stuff which can be exposed to the user, if the developer writes the interface, has an interface in ProMatrix. If the interface needs a facelift to match the developers style, fine, but for utilities it really isn't a big deal in many cases.

IOW, both product can do the job, but one requires a liitle more effort by the developer. Does extra effort give the developer more flexibility? Perhaps in some circumstances. Each developer needs to evaluate his own wants (needs aren't real big here, because both systems can produce very good applications, with a lot less work and a lot quicker, than coding in house.

MaxFrame is ahead of ProMtrix in C/S support, but the newest stuff in ProMatrix is going to open a lot of doors for international development. ProMatrix just completed a maintenance update to vewsion 6.0 which added a messageing class to set it up for built in international support (which is the next announced product and due to go to beta in a few weeks)

Another feature of ProMatrix is that is has its own Data dictionary, which essentially replaces most of the funtions of the DBC. The big advantage here is that it enforces RI and other rules on any table, Free or DBC, including between Free and DBC tables. Because of the built in DD, their are no prebuilt hooks into SDT or other tools. Hank Fay, one of the top ProMatrix users has written a utility to use the ProMatrix DD with xCase, which is available as freeware with a GNU license attached on his web site.

I also like the support for ProMatrix. they provide 90 days free online support via a private newsgroup, and unlimited access to peer supported private newsgroups (private as in privately hosted, but open to anyone in the case of the peer, news, and chatter groups, and by subscription after 90 days in the ProMatrix supported group) Drew sells MaxFrame for a little less than ProMatrix, but offers no incuded support. While it is pay as you go support, I have heard that Drew does support the product very well.

I like the convenience of ProMatrix, but intend to work with MaxFrame to see how it works for me. I strongly agree with the idea that a good framework product iseasily worth the price. going it alone is really not worth the effort with the tools available today.

One caveate, all code has warts, and frameworks are no different. And sure as a user trys a new framework product, it is going to seem "broken" because it doesn't work like "I want it to". If you are going to use a framework, learn to work within the frameworks system. Discover its limitations, and work aronds. It will save you a ton of time, and make you money, Fight it and you will become frustrated, and unhappy. Framesworks, by their nature CANNOT be all things to all people.

I see there are several Promatrix users in the list for this thread so I won't belabor the virtues of the product. For the record, I am not an employee of ProMatrix, but did participate on the v.5.1/6.0 and v6.0a beta teams.

Steve...