Ken,

> While everything you say is nice ... and true to some degree ... honestly
> (as a lot of comments here are) it is a little on the polyannistic (is
> that a word ) side.

*G* I've been called worse.

> It leans toward the "if you build it, they will come" attitude which we
> all now is a "field of deams ..." (sorry, couldn't help it :-D ).

Actually it was IMO a simple recognition of reality. Companies like MSFT are doing what they do tomake money. If we make money by successfully using a given tool that MSFT owns and sells that has not a whole lot to do with how many of those tools MSFT can itself sell. In the case of FoxPro we all stand to gain from the demise of Clipper and dBase (though it is I'm sure still out there). Remember, MSFT's metrics are different than ours.

> The truth of the matter is more like "if you market it and give T-shirts
> away, and use it for demos, and take the IS mangers to lunch, and actually
> recommend it from the Office group or the SQL group" they will come. The
> goal ought not to be to "get around or succeed in spite of" the realities
> (which are just perceptions) of the industry ... but rather to change them!
> Let's get VFP more "entrenched" ... those things don't happen by accident.

I think we agree here. My point was that when we succeed in our development of VFP-based solutions then our clients will also join us in supporting FoxPro. What makes _that_ happen is for us to get *real good* at our craft.

> If the goal is only to make a living as a developer and roll with the tide,
> then your points work well. If however, the goal is to secure long term
> growth and support for the language that we know and love, then we need to be
> more proactive.

?? Well, I'm not out to end world hunger, though if I make enough money I can certainly help. The bottom line is that I *am* out to "only make a living" with my programming expertise. Whether I do it with FoxPro or dish soap I could care less, though I'd have a real tough time with my recursion routines in Tide. *G*

IOW, let's not confuse ideals with reality. The ideals/goals guide us and reality is, well, reality.

> I am reminded of my near 20-year Rock and Roll career that I finally gave up
> when I realized that making good music or talent had absolutly ZERO to do
> with success. The same is true for development. Client success stories are
> nice, but they will never outweigh marketing, marketing, marketing MARKETING!
> Perhaps it takes coming up through the marketing/advertising industries as I
> did to realize the great truth of product success is that "What real ain't
> what's real, what they believe is real is what's real".

Well, the marketers will only market what they think will sell and that is driven by what the client wants and by the marketers. My point is that when we create solutions in VFP then we help increase the demand for the product. I happen to believe that we will get a lot further down the road on that path than trying to derail the current MSFT marketing program, though I applaud the effort.

> If you don't believe this ... talk to BetaMax owners!

Bu who cares? As long as people can watch movies. Ultimately who really cares if it's a VFP or a VB solution? As long as the customer gets one.

SOmetimes I think we developers are more in love with our tools than taking care of our customers. That's not good business and is not a reflection of reality in the business world.

Like it or not, our clients care more for _their_ businesses than ours. As long as we do not forget this we will be successful in _our_ businesses.

Best,