>I dunno about that. VFP work is expanding here in the state capitol because people are finding that it makes a great front-end to data warehousing systems...also, I'm seeing some Access stuff replaced with VFP. Hell, I know of a VB app that was replaced with VFP. Now, I wouldn't say it's "Katie bar the door" as to marketshare increases, but I am seeing some decent inroads. Let's call this a draw.
>

In the aggregate, at best, it is holding constant. I don't think you can take what is going on in your backyard, and extrapolate that to the rest of the world. Look at what your putting forth as your basis for conclusion, one VB app being replaced by a VFP app. You do go to qualify your statement a bit about market share increases. As far as decent inroads go, in your back yard and some others, sure, but in the aggregate, I don't think so....

>>>1) The Fox team at MS is bigger than it was a year ago.
>>
>>Are you talking support or core development? The core development team has not grown. As for support, I don't think that has grown either. So, just where do you get these facts....????
>
>It has either grown or is growing. I believe they were recently looking for a coder with C experience and a QA person. In fact, I know someone (an MS employee) who was interviewed for the QA job. Sorry, John, Craig is right on that count.
>

OK... adding two people, gee, my mistake.... I am glad they were looking for a coder with C experience...<s>. And, I am also glad they are adding a QA person. Lets see, that brings the VFP team to:

Randy, Calvin, Ricardo, another coder, but I cannot remember her name, Gene, a contractor that took Ken's place, another coder, and a QA person. By my count, that brings the team to 8 people...

I think your definition on what constitutes growth and mine are a bit different.

I will say this, the Fox team has the best revenue per employee of any team at MS...

>>>2) Fox is getting a serious look at by many people since being bundled with >Visual Studio
>>
>>Really??? Who???? Unless I hear the words "Visual FoxPro" coming out of Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer's mouth in a positve light, I would have to politely disagree with this statement. Cmon Craig, VFP has been part of Visual Studio for 2 years now.....
>
>Call this a draw, too. VFP gets a serious looked when a VFP developer grabs a VB or VC++ developer and shows it to him/her. I've seen that happen, but no spontaneous leap to the product just because it's in VS.
>

Cmon John, stop being so nebulous here....Listen to you... A VFP developer. Singular.. Sure, folks are impressed when they see VFP. However, you last statement makes my point....

but no spontaneous leap to the product just because it's in VS.

Simply put, you can have all the serious LOOKS you want. Getting people to use the product is another story. If you want the product to survive, it has to retain, or better yet, increase it's market share.. I don't see the latter happening. And, by your own admition, being in VS is not helping the cause that much either...


>>Was it at TechEd? - No...
>>Was it at PDC? - No...
>>Was it mentioned at this year's DevDays? - No...
>
>I think it will be at some point. Someone in our community has to come up with the compelling reason why VFP is vital to Win DNA.
<

Dude... I don't care how compelling a reason you come up with. If VFP is at teched again through some miracle:

NOBODY OTHER THAN VFP DEVELOPERS WILL ATTEND THE SESSION.

As for PDC, I'll bet a Ruth's Chris Dinner that VFP will not be at the PDC. Just what do you base your optimism on here....

>A problem is, as you have pointed out in the past (and I agree), is that the Fox community is insular and doesn't necessarily make contributions to the big picture that MS would look at as being worthwhile.
>

The bigger problem is that the rest of the world is not compelled to give VFP a serious look. That translates into WEAK demand.... I am as big a VFP fan as there is. However, I am not dillusional. I cannot sit here and see you and Craig make conclusions based on how you feel, as opposed to cold hard facts... Rather, I think you are spending more time talking about what folks up here want to read, as opposed to something that remotely resembles reality...

>>>3) My conversations with several people at MS...and that includes people not on the Fox team
>>
>>Shall I compare comments I have received to your's??? I don't think you would want me to do this?
>
>Maybe you should :-)

Fine... a direct quote from someone, pretty high ranking I might add, on the VS team... 'Why are you spending time working with VFP... I don't get it....'

For obvious reasons, I am not going to divuldge the person's name. I could go on, but I don't think I have to.

OK.. I will

At this years devdays, I wanted to demo a few things for one of the MS reps that were present at the Philadelphia show. He bluntly told me that he did not give a Sh** about VFP. However, I am long since done with whining and complaining about the state of affairs with VFP.

NOBODY OUTSIDE THE VFP CAMP GIVES A CRAP ABOUT VFP...

Which is fine by me. We have a great niche... Lets ride it for as long as we can... It will be our little secret.

Folks need to differentiate between how I feel about the product, and how I REALISTICLY view the points of other people toward VFP....

>
>After all, you didn't know about fairly public job openings at MS.
>


John, I am not looking for a job. That said, I don't give a lick about the job openings at MS. I don't pour over the latest and greatest news. When something significant happens, I know about it.. We will leave it at that...<s>

>>>4) The VFP certifications exams. These will definately help increase attention on the product.
>><
>>
>>You think so...??? Sure, the MCP folks are interested in someone to review the exams. They need to.
>
>I think so too, John; I agree with Craig. Look at it this way: You can only become an MCSD using VB, VC++, or VFP. That ranks VFP up there with the "premier" tools. It validates VFP to the business community as a professional tool as it passes down to VFP legitimacy from MS. I think this inclusion is very important.
>

Please..... You know, there was a cert exam for VFP 3.0. Boy, that did a lot.... Gee, look for topics on Y2K in VS. The only product that hits it head on is VFP. Boy, that does alot...

John, when folks evaluate tools, I guarantee you they do not check to see if the tool has the latest battery of exams...

The VFP exams do one thing... allows folks in the VFP community to not have to learn VB or VC++ to become an MSCD. That's it... It will not magically increase the market share.

Instead of telling me how you feel, give me some quantitative evididence to support you conclusions. I have history, and the current state of affairs on my side here to support mine....


>>Nobody gives a crap about VFP outside the VFP community...PERIOD.
>
>Part of the problem is that most VFPers don't give one outside the VFP community.

I'll agree with you here....