Man, that's one long response! Thanks for replying and explaining things more. You certainly clarify some issues.

I guess I could go on for a while too, but it doesn't really seem necessary now. I will say that I do believe that you give out good technical advice (I've read your VFP book and your ADO white paper and many of your threads) and I agree that it's a must to make sure people are giving out accurate advice out here. I also know that you spend a considerable amount of time doing this, so you must feel that you serve a real purpose and I assume you enjoy helping people. (Otherwise, what would be the point....)

But, I believed this before reading your response. I used to tell my friends that I was reading a book by a guy who actually uses VB and VFP and I'm sure I quoted you more than once.

So, anyway you now have more perspective (from my view) as well. The point I'm getting at is that since you are spending all this time contributing and reviewing threads you might as well be as effective as possible. Why not reach as large an audience as you can? This is why I finally jumped into the "civil" debate. The more people respect you, the more they will listen to you. I know this isn't a popularity contest. If it was, you wouldn't be jumping in on the VB thing with all these VFP folks. I'm not talking popularity. I'm talking about effectively deciminating information to the largest group possible. Why spend all this time and have some people skip over your threads because they think you've got a screw loose or something? The mad scientist thing is only cool in the movies.

I know that there is a time in a place for everything and sometimes being shucky darn nice won't get you anywhere. And I'm not going to say that I never have a bad day either......

Apparently, this rambling thing is contagious.

Oh well, even with my poor writing skills, I'm sure you've grasped the moral of my story for what it's worth.

Peace

>Sorry dude...
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>I thought I responded to this... Oh, well, I guess I did'nt... Thanks for putting a bug in my ear on this... :)
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>>You sound like Charles Barkley - "I'm not a role model...." :)
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>Good analogy. We had Charles in Philadephia from 84 - 92. He is/was always a great interview. Always speaks his mind. He, like me, is often misunderstood. I think you have to respect people that take a stand, and stick to it. It is very easy to go with the flow... It would be easy for me to just abandon my stance with many things. My popularity would rise... However, that would not be true to my beliefs. That would not be me being me...
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>>Seriously though, I won't debate the "Civil MVP" thing, but I certainly question the purpose of being a Dick while posting accurate technical advice. Now, I'm no technical expert, but over the years I have grasped some basics in communication. I've noticed that people tend to listen better when they are not pissed off and on the defensive. So, if I tell somone that VB is a good tool for some things and I give them solid facts, that tends to work better than saying "HEY MORON, VB is a solid tool!"
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>I have never called anybody a moron... And to be honest, I don't think I have been a dick... I have asked again and again for some folks up here, who throw out ideas, to defend them. They don't do that. So, instead of letting it go, I press on, getting the person to either take up the debate, or have them admit that maybe, their idea did'nt have a lot of merit.
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>Now, you may ask, "Gee John, why do you go through the trouble...???" Because a lot of folks take advice, whereever it comes, as gospel. And, if it comes from an MVP, they REALLY take it as gospel. Unfortunately, some folks who have attained the MVP status don't perform at the level they should. The UT, about a year ago, was a breeding ground for MVP's. Now, there are some deserving folks. Ed Rauh, John Koziol, Nancy Folsom, to three off the top of my head. Now, it is important to keep in mind that I earned my MVP status before I started to frequent the UT. I made my bones up on Compuserve, where I was a Technical Resource Specialist...I came to the UT because I was tired of dealing with non-web based entities...
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>Getting back to my point about MVP's.. Do we have a greater responsibility..? Sure, to be technically accurate. Let's take Ed Pikman for an example since he and I just had another batch of arguments.. Now, I can name several folks up here who are NOT MVP's, who are technically on most, if not all the time. Erik Moore is a good example here. He has been nominated, and I think he would make a great MVP. Do you know what an MVP gets?? Let me tell you:
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>Universal MSDN
>Technet
>150 MVP bucks - to be used at MS's online MVP store. i.e., I can get any MS Press book for 10-20 MVP bucks. I can get a MS keyboard for 25 MVP bucks.. It is like going to the company store in Redmond...
>We also get a few free test vouchers
>We also get a free MSN account - although I don't use mine....
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>These are not trivial items. Tally it up, and we are talking at least $3,000 if you had to lay out the money yourself.
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>One of the initial criteria is how much you post... Ed has an unreal amount of posts here....The criteria should be accuracy, as well as quantity. i.e., if you answer 10 posts a month accurately, that is not enough to qualify for the award. Other criteria are the contributions you make to the community. Michel is not up here answering questions all that often, but I think he is an MVP because the UT is an important contribution to the community.
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>I suppose my fear here is that the standards for MVP's have been lax'd a bit here. I would like to see the bar raised.. And, if it seems I am making an example of Ed here, so be it. A large part of it is his attitude in the whole thing. And maybe it is that that has me pissed off....As for Walter Meester, he is yet another guy who cannot admit when he has gone down a bad path. The stuff about MVP's having the responsibility to be civil all the time maybe pisses me off more. Looking at me, most of my exchanges are very friendly. Yes, my arch nemisis has been, and will always be Jim Nelson. Jim bascially has a mad-on for the World at times.. I am not the only one to have had problems with him, and I suspect, I will not be the last.. I definitely don't think issues I have with 3 or 4 folks up here should be extrapolated to where I have issues with everybody.
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>OK, back to the MVP thing, and my issues with Ed......
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>Like I said, I hold MVP's to a higher standard. You should as well. However, I believe that I have some additional license because I am one. You know, you can always knock one of your own...Look, Jim Booth has taken me to task on several occasions. A guy named Jeff Winchell took me to task several times up on Compuserve. Man, if you think I am rough, you guys have never met Jeff Winchell... A great guy, one of the best technically, but if you pulled something out of thin air, and were advising people based on that, you were going to get smoked....
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>So, as far as Ed is concerned... he has some big shoes to fill. The way I see it, if I am willing to open myself up to critisism, I can dish it out as well. One thing you can say about me, I take it as well as I give it. And, when I am wrong, I admit it freely. That said, I expect high standards from MVP's. I have worked hard to keep the award, as the other MVP's have. If you look at the roster, just about every Devcon Speaker is one. Almost every VFP author is one as well. If you look at the roster, it is a group of folks with an impressive list of contributions to the community. You want to break into that club, you better be good. Why? Because we are the leaders in the online communities.
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>Should we strive to be civil? Of course, but everybody should. Could I use some work in this area? I think I would be dillusional if I said no.. We all have our faults.
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>What should our technical accuracy be? I think it should be 99.99% You know when you respond to somebody whether you are grabbing at straws, or if you know the answer. Nobody can convince me otherwise. Often, I don't participate in a thread because of one very simple reason - I don't know the correct answer. Now, if somebody like me, who is an MVP, who is arguably in the top 1/2 of 1 percent of developers in his community can do that, why can't others? There is no crime in not knowing everything. When folks spout of bad advice, that is bad. When it comes from an MVP, it is worse. Because IMO, they represent ME, another MVP. And with that, it does become both personal and professional....
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>Now... it can go one of two ways.... The first is easy...If I bring something to your attention, you can either give me a rational explanation as to why you came up the solution you did, or you can agree that you were incorrect... Now, in Ed's case, he has never done that.... If he were not an MVP, I really would'nt care.... But he is... And, as long as he is one... I'll treat him the same way... Hey, it's been done to me.... The only other folks I get harsh with are folks that engage me in a debate, and then do not stick to the rules. Walter Meester is case and point here... And, if you are going to fight dirty, you will get my wrath.... Jim Nelson tried those tactics with me. As he well knows, I will outlast you. I am a bulldog. I do not quit... In other words, if you keep coming back for more, I am more than willing to serve it up... Stop coming back, and I will shut it off. It is a pretty simple formula... Jim Nelson finally learned this lesson...
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>So, it is all about excellence, making this a more technically robust forum.
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>Yet, the civility issue really comes to the top of things. There are those that would sacrafice technical accuracy for civility... The bad thing about civility is that it is so subjective. What is regarded as a personal attack by some, is not by others. Who can judge. Nobody... It is important to note that this persona of mine was not cultivated overnight... I have been the one to spear-head things in the community with respect to using other tools with VFP. I wear that badge with pride. There are some however that think a conspiracy exists, that I am trying to kill off VFP... Jim Nelson is a big believer and a big perpetuator of these thoeries. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yet, when you look at folks viewpoints toward me, this creeps in. In other words, it isn't just the events of the last few weeks....
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>Folks want a nice, civil on line forum here... And I think it should be... But it is first and foremost a technical forum... And, I for one do not think technical accuracy should be sacraficed for civility... Are there right ways and not so right ways to inform people that maybe what they did was not the best way, or even a good way to do something? Sure. And, that is my first approach. It is when you refuse to admit the obvious, or quantitivately back up what you are saying. Remember, folks take the advice dispensed up here, and act on it. For some folks, I have seen some very expensive advice given up here.. Of course, I mean expensive in a bad way.
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>I know I have rambled on here a bit. My feelings on this whole thing are quite complicated. It really is more than me just "being a prick..."
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>All I ask is that folks that take time to answer a question... be sure you know something about the subject matter, and have a clue. Points should be based on quality, not quantity... This goes for everybody. It is espcially true for MVP's. When you accept that award, a responsbility comes with it. And, if you think I am bad, you should see some of the Visual Basic MVP's... They make me look like a pussy cat....
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>As for civility... Sure, I will try harder.... But I will still by myself...
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>Merry Christmas...
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>>So, although I'm not saying that an MVP can't be a Dick, I am saying that they would be more effective if they weren't.
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>>Am I making any sense?