>Now where do those rules say anything about the lastname field in a customer record? Normalization is a process tool that helps in testing relational database designs for CERTAIN anomalies. Ther are many other sets of rules related to relational design that are NOT normalization.

Jim,

I understand the normal forms, although 5 gives me a headache trying to verbalize it :-)

There are those who interpret "repeating groups" as "repeating values" and will therefore pull those out to separate tables. Sometimes this makes sense - many times, not. If you look at empty or null values as repeats - that is where the second example came from. SQL Server On-Line books under normalization even states: "If you have a table with several nullable columns and several of the rows have null values in the columns, you should consider placing these columns in another table linked to the primary table."

I have read, although I can not find it at the moment, more specific and definitive statements of the latter case (empty fields) as a breech of normalization and conjecture on the former as a "technical" breech.

I disagree with it - it is stupid and against all common sense most of the time - but my point is that despite the fact that it is mathematical in nature -normalization rules can still be interpreted - and if a person fixates on following someones explanations or interpretations of it blindly - then I don't want them on my team!

In any case - and this really illustrates my main point - what works and is effecient is all that matters. If I break every rule in the book and come up with a better performing (in all senses of the word) database and/or application design, then good for me! That is what I will do.

Now - having said that - it is VERY important to understand where normalization should be employed - but to me - that is more of an intuitive, common sense thing than a mathematical one. If a person can't "see" needed normalization without having to apply tests and math rules - then they have no business designing databases.

Thanks for your opinions - I value them even when I may not totally agree. You are an asset to this Forum and community. :-)