>>Well, there are uninformed users and there are informed users <g>
>>
>>The uninformed users have no clue of the options and so cannot form a comparative conclusion... The informed users, OTOH, have seen the development process with and without a framework (also with several programmers coming and going over the past couple of years) and they are thrilled with the consistency a framework provides and all of the features which there was never "enough time" to include before.
>>
>>In no particular order... these are
>>
>>- security
>>- standard interface from app to app
>>- ad hoc reports
>>- error handling (cuts waaaayyyy down on debugging time!)
>>- audit trail
>>
>>Of course, keep in mind that I'm working in what (I hope) is a unique environment... The owner wrote the original program in FPD2.6 so he know a little (very little) about coding :) Also, we tend to put apps into production and debug as we go . The framework has streamlined this process quite a bit, since there are fewer errors in the first place and those that do occur are pinpointed and resolved much more effectively.
>>
>>Do you use a framework? Which one? What's your impression of VPM?
>>
>>HTH
>>
>
>

---

Hi Larry,
>I think I'm not a newbie to VFP and using VPM for months (w/o my will). If this is the same product from promatrix (VPM6.0b) then there should be something wrong with me. Am I missing something ? You say it "has" error handling. Where ? Only thing I could find is "errors" menu item where you can only check "status" and "memory" at the time error occurred. I couldn't do a real debugging yet. How to do it ? Many times I find myself writing :
>"on shutdown
>quit"
>in command window for I just merely misspelled a table or variable name. Well those are easy to find and fix but there are some that I really want to be able to use "debugger". How could I ?
>I don't want to be antipromoting but I have real doubts. I killed my own persistent relations just for the sake of VPM cannot handle it in one_to_many. If you're developing a simple project then it's OK. Anyone later checking project could resolve relations. What if you have many tables ? You don't have an option to see relations at a glance in DBC.
>Another point is that most of the time object names are hardcoded :( Why should I always have grdChild in pgfChild pages ?
>Yes you could go and change source code (really ?) and honestly I did that too. What happens when a new version arrives ? Well I extended 2tier subclasses to 3tier to be able to protect myself from version changes but definitely that doesn't mean I would be free of checking my code changes. Jack says code is rock solid but I found bug in code in the first day I started to use VPM6.0. There are still bugs in 6.0b. Newsgroup catches some and how many left ? Well try only this one :
>
>-create a table with 2-3 fields which all are FK.
>-Set their relations to a lookup table.
>-Create a form and for all fields set lLookupDescription = .t. and set needed properties like cLookUpFKTag etc.
>-Run form. Voila no problem and you can enter records.
>-Now delete all records (no zapping)
>-Try to run form :(
>
>Well only if I could find an answer to "debugging" I could live with it. TIA
>Cetin

Cetin,

Some time ago, there was a rather extensive discussion of frameworks' pros and cons on this thread which I followed with great interest. One of the points made in that discussion was that you have to be comfortable with the way the framework conducts it's business... Regarding VPM, it's widely documented that the VPM database doesn't require (and sometimes doesn't cooperate with) the VFP database (.dbc). IOW, use the tools RI handling and it should be Ok. I personally have had no problems whatsoever defining relationships through VPM (granted, I also have never had a table made up entirely of FK's either).

I guess the point is this, since you're forced to use it anyway, you might as well learn the "tips and tricks" about it so that it works most effectively.

What I like about the error handling is precisely the points that you mentioned. You can go to the Admin menu look who generated the error, when and on what line... as well the contents of memory at the time... All this without kicking the user out of the system! Sure, they get a message but it's a controlled message which is much more professional than some of the messages I can generate on my own! :)

At any rate... it would be naive of me to assume that this is the perfect framework for everyone... I'm just saying it works for me!

HTH