>To be honest, I have never dealt with folks that are impacted by their computers to the extent they need therapy.

I didn't say they need therapy. I said they feel frustrated. Since I hear people express these sentiments all the time, I'm very surprised that you don't.

>If folks get confused, why is always the computer's fault. Perhaps they don't know how to use the software???

They probably don't know the software very well, but my point is that they shouldn't have to know that much about the software. The software is just a tool to do their real jobs - that's where they're supposed to be experts.

We don't expect people to know very much about what's going on under the hood of a car to drive one. It's enough to know how to turn the thing on, put it in gear, press the accelerator and steer. Knowing how to use the brake is also useful. <g> The user interface of a car is many times easier to use than the user interface of most software. In addition, there's tremendous consistency from one car to the next. There are essentially only two major interface models to learn - automatic transmission and manual. Nobody would ever think of reversing the position of the gas and brake pedals "because it might look better that way." The variations that exist are minor ones - one manufacturer might have the gas pedal further up off the floor. (There are also variations when you come to less important controls and they're annoying when you rent or borrow a car.)

>You are advocate/defender for the user. This is the tact that over-cited/over-quoted author Alan Cooper takes. I understand and appreciate the stance you are taking. However, it is a position (liberal) that I don't agree with. That said, we will agree to disagree..

If you don't like Cooper, try reading Schneiderman or Neilsen.

> This discussion was centered around web-interfaces and what makes them good or bad.

Why would the criteria for a good interface be any different just because we're talking about a web site?

>You extrapolated the UT interface to include all web-interfaces. If you have problems with the UT interface, fine. A lot of people do, and at time, I also have problems. However, to indict an entire platform and the whole paradigm behind that platform based on the experiences in a few websites seems shortsighted to me...

No, I didn't. I commented that I found the UT interface difficult. I also commented that I found many websites difficult for many of the same reasons. Why you'd think I was extrapolating from experiences with a few, I can't imagine.

>First of, who is WE. Second, do we really hold designers of other interfaces to "high standards"? If we did, we would not continually see bad UI. With respect to the standards, would you mind enumerating what those "high standards" are? And further, what body promulgated those standards?

"We" is users.
On the second question, probably not high enough, but higher than we do for web sites.
As for standards, I intentionally used a lower-case "s", not upper, meaning "that which we find acceptable," not "published standards." I do think that one of the accepted rules in application design today is that different users prefer different modes of input and applications should accomodate those preferences.

JVP > Have you ever used the mouse wheel?

TG >Yes, I have. I haven't decided yet whether I like it or not.

JVP >Is it really *that* complicated of a decision????

You asked if I'd used it. I have, but not much and not even to decide whether I like it. On the whole, I think the answer will be no, because it encourages me to rest my hand on the mouse, which is bad for carpal tunnel.

>Again, is the issue with the tools or the programmers. I suspect we may be arguing different points. You indicted web interfaces. In fact, your indictment rests with programmers. I'll agree with you there. However, there is nothing inherently bad with web-interfaces. The issue again is with the programmers.

I never indicted web interfaces. You chose to read my comments that I found many websites badly designed as such an indictment.

Tamar