Sorry -- the other one got away!

> I do sense that you have a very narrow view of what constitutes "reponsibility" and "ethics" - limiting it to apparently - 'how much money does one (or a group/organization) give to the poor either through taxes or charity". I would challenge that definition at its most fundamental level. 50 years of failed 'welfare" demonstrates quite nicely that money solves very little. the systemic and sociatl probelms we have can not be adequately addressed through money alone - if at all.

> You are failing to realize or acknowledge some basic laws of human nature at work here - namely that 1) you can not help someone who does not want to be helped 2)there are many people who are simply lazy or selfish and would rather take whatever than can get for free than try to work for anything. 3) for many -it is simply easier to vote money away from the industrious than to be industrious themselves.

> It reminds me of a test I once did - 3 times in one week. I went up to people who had "will work for food" signs. I offerred all 3 of them (separate incidences) 5-8 hour jobs (cleaning building, yard work, or something along that line) for $10/hr including ride to where it was, etc. and potenital for even more work. They were all physically able. ALL 3 of them looked at me like I was crazy. Two actually said "can't you just give me some money?" I did to one - but he got $5 instead of the $50-$80 he could have had.

Ken --

This part of the thread started when you picked out a short passage from a much longer message. The short passage you quoted referred to understanding responsibility not only to oneself but to one's wider community. You stated very clearly that responsibility to the wider community was important but that it should be done voluntarily, not imposed by government. So, we began a discussion on responsibility to one's community.

So, when you try to formulate what you think my view of ethics and responsibility is and consider that to be narrowed to concerns about the community, I'd simply say that that's the topic we've been pursuing. And, I find it helps to focus on a topic. I haven't really discussed my sense of personal responsibility because that has not been the way I've approached the question.

When I discuss a topic with some one, I approach them as a responsible adult with valid opinions. I hope to share and learn from them. I try to treat their opinions with respect, even though I may disagree with them. I've learned to deal with what people say rather than what they intend -- because that's such a difficult undertaking even with people that I've known for many years.

I find your assumptions about what I'm saying to reflect your own preoccupations. When I read through message I just don't see my words, concerns or understandings reflected in them. So, I really don't know how to respond if we're trying to have a dialog.

The issues raised are very important -- How do we regard our neighbor, what does it mean to live in a community? I'm glad that you have done your own experimentation. In Indianapolis, I think that's actually a business. We see a person driving these guys around and parking them for the day at busy intersections. The driver gets a cut <s>. I'd have to say, though, that that is not a representative sample of poverty in America.

I'd like to continue the dialog -- how do you want to proceed?


Jay