Chris,


>>>Because it goes past the boundry of rich cultural information to the establishment of religion. I don't think most people think of the Ten Commandments in anything other than a religious sense.
>>
>>Well, isn't that 'line' kind of what we're discussion here?
>
>Yes, and I have made my decision. It goes past that line. End of argument. *g*

Understood.. I'm sure we can agree to disagree, eh?

>
>>>In other words, what do we include, and what do we exclude?
>>
>>
>>I honestly do not know Chris. I do know that since we removed prayer from our public schools in '62-62 that we've seen a huge increase in stuff like drug use, violence, out-of-wedlock births and a whole bunch of other things. Again, I do think there is a direct correlation between the notion of people thinking they will ultimately be responsible to God and their behaior.
>
>Do you really think that the removal of prayer from schools is the cause of drug use, violence, etc.? I was sure it was the Rolling Stones.

Well, if nothing more than an outward manifestation of an inward trend.

One thing folks haven't asked me though is whom would I fault here?

Care to guess? <g>

The members of this country's churches. Trying to lobby and agitate when they should have been praying. Begging for money on television when they should have been giving what they had to the poor. Teaching that prosperity was God's wish rather than mercy and justice. Helping themselves to the plate when they should have been helping the fatherless, the widow and the displaced. Telling others to get their lives 'right with God' rather than living that example first. And I am probably just as guilty as most.

Yet... God loves me, which I do not understand...

You think I'm rough on those outside of the church? Come on in and you might change your mind. <g>

It's distatseful at best.

None of which changes the notion that we all reap what we sow.

>
>And before 1962, while we still had prayer, we had an entire segment of society that was virtually invisible. Before 1962, if you were a white male, life was pretty good. Somehow, after we lost school prayer, blacks started being recognized as citizens, women could have careers, and the Jets won the Super Bowl.
>
>Again Doug, who's God? Judaism, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu? And what will the prayer be? Who decides that? Or do we just have a rotating Religion du Jour? (by the way, du Jour is French for "Soup of the Day" *g*)

Well, do you really want to open that can of worms? <g> I suspect not. I'm perfectly willing to take as much time as you'd like discussion this issue but as others have pointed out we're probably better letting it go.

>
>>What was the classic definition of integrity? "Doing what is right even when no one is watching." Think about this for a minute.. If we teach our kids that they are nothing but animals why are we surprised that they act like animals? If we teach them that they are more than animals then at least we can have the expectation that they behave like more than animals.
>
>I have no idea where you are going from integrity to teaching our kids they are nothing but animals. I suspect evolution, but can you clarify?

That and much much more. Again, let's move on.

>
>>Not to be preachy.. <g> It really is just good common sense and I guess I am more than a little surprised to find so few folks who 'get it'. *shrug*
>
>It is very simple. The establishment of prayer in our public schools and/or the posting of the Ten Commandments constitutes the establishment of religion. Period. And when the state starts establishing religion, I start getting very nervous. If you want to teach your children to pray, you have every morning, every afternoon and evening, every weekend, summer vacation. And if that is not enough, send them to private school. But leave it out of our public schools.

Well, as I mentioned before I'm not sure where this line should be drawn. IOTOH I do object to the willful exclusion of points of view because folks don't agree with them. How are the kids going to learn unless we teach them?

>
>>It's the whole notion of instilling in kids the sense of responsibility that I think is bad.
>
>Not sure what you mean here.

Well, think about it a little.. *s*

>
>>Where or how you draw that line I don't really know but I think we've gone too far in one direction..
>
>Like I said in other posts, I'll leave that to the US Supreme Court.

Well, I prefer to go to a higher authority. <g>

Thanks Chris for your thoughtful questions and answers. I appreciate your feedback!