>There seem to be lots of "experts" & people who have been around a long time,
>who keep telling me that it's wonderful here & I'm mistaken. As always - those
>that are part of the problem, denying there is a problem.

>It would be interesting to hear the views of anyone else who has been here for
>around as long as I have, i.e. not long. Am I wrong in feeling that the place
>is very cliquey, not so welcoming to newcomers & intolerant of views that do
>not match those of the "inner sanctum".

Len,

I am in here since August 1999, and an answer to one of my first questions almost drove my out of UT. "Dumb question on my behalf" somebody replied and gave me an advice that was just a piece of crap. Back then I would have agreed that this place is not so welcoming to newcomers. Since then I got pretty comfortable with this place and today I can say that UT is the most important resource for my VFP work. The guys in here gave me so much, it would be impossible to compensate that. Though I am a "non-expert" & somebody who hasn't been around here a long time I will also tell you that it's wonderful here!

I read almost all messages of this elongated thread, you made some good points and I agree with you mostly, but to answer your question: I think that you are wrong in feeling what you stated above. Why? Because it would be wrong to draw conclusions from a few messages. Yes, sometimes this place is cliquey, yes, sometimes it is not so welcoming to newcomers and sometimes it is intolerant of views that do not match those of the "inner sanctum", but it isn't in general. Though this is a virtual community, it is a community - a social group sharing common interests. It comforts me to see that it follows the same rules and behaviours like real life communities. All kind of individuals with different tempers and spirits, sometimes troublemaking and annoying, most of the time helpful and supporting. Take some time to get used to those individuals, then you will know how take them - just like in real life.

Something important to me: I am not happy with some harsh words towards George Tasker and Ed Rauh. In my point of view both of them are invaluable supporters of this forum. That wouldn't give them the right to be offensive or whatever they are accused to be, but I never got the feeling that George is doing anything like that. Just the opposite of that, I often see him beeing considerate towards newcomers giving explanations and examples patiently. Ed is harder to take, that is because of his almost vanishing gap between irony and sarcasm - IMHO. While sarcasm to me seems to be inappropriate in public discussions, irony is a gift, accessible to those with a lot of intellect only. Since to my experiance most people are not gifted, ironic remarks are often taken as offensive. I have changed some messages with him (Thread #322685), and that made me understand and accept the way he acts - most of it. To take out the community metaphor again, it is ok to have people like him in the community as it is ok to have people like you drawing attention to something that might be dangerous to the communities balance.

Thats life!

Robert Stralka