Jerry
(first off, my name is Joe...)

>>OK...MS has every right to try to develop a commercial product based on such things...
>
>True. Never said they didn't, as long as they don't break laws... :)

I totally agree.

>A law that is not enforced is not a law. We have speedl limit signs here in Nebraska that read "Fines Doubled" in work zones. While traveling in Omaha in such a zone at 55MPH, a police cruiser pulled up along side and motioned me to speed up. I reached 65MPH and the cruiser was still speeding away from me. To match the flow of traffic I had to go about 70MPH. The effect of the Apellate Court's ruling was to tell MS to 'speed it up'.

I have no idea what this means. The basic boil-down of the appellate ruling is this: Ther remedy has been completely thrown out, as has the judge who made it. But the Findings of Fact and the Conclusions of Law _still stand_. Something like page 123 of the PDF, if my Slashdot memory stays with me...

If you think the appellate ruling was a "blank check" for MS to do whatever they wish, then you and I will simply have to agree to disagree on that...

>>>I also predicted that MS will push/promote/buy legislation to outlaw General PCs because they represent a threat to "Intellectual Property", copyrights and patents.
>>
>>Um, well, that is one prediction that will _never_ come true (are you saying it has?)
>
>MS is already lobbying for such a law, along with the recording industry and some others.

Excuse me? A law to outlaw the PC? I think you are mixing that up woth the laws they want to place on intellectual property and copyright materials, etc ala UCITA and DMCA...could we have a link to a site explicitly stating that MS is trying to outlaw the generic PC?

>>- scorching by the DOJ
>
>We've already seen that in action... Result... more delays and the former prosecution has been replaced by some less than motivated rookies.

And as I stated above, I feel the appelate ruling still chastises MS quite hard. If you disagree, then our opinions will simply have to differ.

>>- scorching in the marketplace by consumers and corporations alike that will refuse to hand over all control to a single, proprietary company
>
>Mmm..... what is the market place like right now, if not in the control of a single company, which is doing everytthing it can to extend that control over the Internet, i.e., to make it the propriatary property of MS. For example, when you HAVE to use IE to browse most website because propriatary XML, Kerberos and other technology make non MS browsers non-functional. I saw that Britian has made a government website, that it will require it citizens to access for certain government business, IE dependent. Other browsers are rejected. You can't run IE on other platforms, so what are Brition to do. Continue purchasing MS even if they run LInux. But, with the new WinXP type control over the HD installing another OS dual boot will be difficult if not impossible.

Look, I don't HAVE to do anything. If I don't like a web site, I can either try to get them to change, or no longer frequent that site. Using IE is not a matter of life and death. I get by just fine at home using Netscape on Linux.

If Britain wants to force its users to use a certain browser, and the citizenry doesn't care, then too bad. They are stuck and it is their own fault. Folks' ignorance or apathy is no reason to blame MS or be paranoid that they are going to outlaw every single piece of electronics that doesn't come out of Redmond.

>Do you know how hard it is to get NON WinParts for a computer? And how much more they cost?

Um, I do know that parts are cheaper than they have ever been. Just because WinParts are cheaper doesn't mean Windows is a bad thing. I can still get non-Win modems, network cards, video cards, etc etc for far cheaper than I could a few years ago... And it is _very_ easy to get non-Win parts...

>It can't be both ways. Linux can't be a viable threat and 'proof' that a monoply exists in one argument, and then rended inconsequential by saying it doesn't exist on the desktop in the next argument.

Is this directed at my argument, or just an observation? I never mentioned anything about Linux...

>>- scorched by their own common sense when they realize they can't keep gouging folks this way
>>
>What do you think Ballmer and Mundie have been FUDing about? "GPL is Un-American. GPL is anti-Intellectual Property, GPL is-..." Better re-read the Halloween Documents and find out what MS itself said was the threat, and what they said was a method to meet the threat.

I agree, they have FUDed in the past, and are FUDing now, but is it too much to hope that eventually, be it through changing management, growing older, or just getting beat in court that these guys might have a change of heart? I know that is idealistic, but it was still a possibility worth mentioning...

>>How will that defeat Linux? Linux already _IS_ free.
>
>You can't get a free PC with Linux! ;-) If the free PC you do get contains WinXP and won't load Linux you won't use Linux. Your trapped even if you want to move to Linux.

I still don't understand this "won't load Linux" idea...I don't care _what_ they do to the hardware, there is no way they can make it impossible to use without Passport. People simply won't buy it. Look at all the backlash MS is getting for Office XP and Windows XP subscription ideas...folks do NOT WANT a machine that _requires_ a subscription. Even a Tivo can work without the subscription, it just doesn't have the same functionality...

>>And these PCs you talk of...are they going to be locked down so that I can't put _anything_ else on them? That's absurd.
>
>Hardly. It's already happened. The hack has already happened, and the changed EULA to prevent the hack has already happened. It wasn't MS doing it but the model has been developed.

MS has a EULA relating to hardware? How can that be? If I buy a PC from Dell, wipe WIndows off it, how does an MS EULA keep me from doing anything?

>Piece of cake, Matt! These WinPCs will have soldered in boot chips that

Er, my name is Joe.

Jerry, if you believe all that, then we are honestly through talking. Anyone who would buy a solar-powered, Passport-crippled, GAtes-funded machine deserves what they get. Corporations and savvy users will never go for such a thing. AOL has over _30 million_ users how, and they are still growing leaps and bounds. I doubt Bill's machine is going to allow AOL on it, so how exactly is Bill going to sell these free, hardwired subscription machines?

>Better check again. MS is making hardware. Some of it very HailStorm like....

But they don't make PCs, and never will. The day they make PCs is the day that every OEM turns tail and stops using Windows as a default OS.

>Now I can get a Dell PC loaded with Linux right off their factory floor.
>But with what peripheral options? And, on the desktop, Linux is still below 10% by most calculations. In the server room it is at 25% and growing at 28% per year. But not the desktop, yet. A WinPC could kill it in its tracks.

But that's still 10% MORE than where Linux was 10 years ago, because Linux didn't even exist then! How can you look at the progress that has ben made and say that it can all be obliterated by the production of some proprietary WinPC (which doesn't exist yet), in a world where generic PCs are outlawed (which will never happen), running Hailstorm/Passport subscription services (vaporware for the most part) built by a company that will be allowed to leverage whatever it wants with its monopoly (which the appellate court ruled against). Hey, man, if you believe it, more power to you. I certainly can't say you aren't consistent, it's all just a bit to fantastic for my tastes.

>>What makes you think things are going to start going more in MS's proprietary direction?
>
>The Appeals Court said today that while MS broke the anti-Trust laws, the remedy didn't match the crime, and besides, the Judge was biased. Translation: For all practical purposes MS can go about "business as usual." It will take at least two or three years (a LIFETIME in computers) before these issues will reach decision phase again. So, if you want to use MSDN then start paying your PassPort dues. What's your choice?

As I have said earlier, I very much disagree that the appellate ruling boils down to "business as usual".

Thanks for bringing it back the MSDN thing...I was ranging a bit far...

My choices are these:

- develop in some other Windows environment: Borland, Qt, Python, Perl, Tcl/Tk, and various free databases.
- develop in non-windows...Mac, Linux, etc.

Sorry, but those are the only choices you really need. They are the choice we have always had, and they boil down to one thing: If you don't like what MS is doing, stop using MS.

JoeK