Hi Tom,

>>>>Hi Renoir,
>>>>
>>>>Sadly I've come across many "consultants" who believe they can charge full market rates even though they have no experience.
>>>>They do tend to make it more difficult for the genuinely seasoned contractor.
>>>>
>>>>JimN
>>>
>>>Hey Jim,
>>>
>>>Yeah, not often but I've seen it too. What makes someone believe that just by understanding how to move objects around on the screen and get data into a table that they are a "consultant?" I guess the same thing that allows people to feel that they can list any software that they've ever touched as having "experience" with it. Then again, it's tough for a client to know what they're getting. If they're not agressive in checking references, etc then they may get what they're overpaying for... :-)
>>>
>>>Renoir
>>
>>However, I have seen serveral political initiatives to have software programmers licensed and tested the same way other professionals are, consistantly shot down by the coders themselves, aided and abetted by software houses. We test and license doctors, lawyers, engineers and even cosmotoligists (hair cutters), but not software programmers. If software programmers had to pass general and specific proficiency tests (that are not cash cows of the software industry) in order to receive a license to consult for hire, along with laws making coding for hire illegal if the coder is not licensed, it would go a long way to improve the image and quality of the programming profession.
>>
>>Let the aruging being.... :)
>
>Jerry;
>
>Great topic!
>
>I attended engineering college to obtain a degree in electrical (electronic) engineering. Having paid my dues so to speak, the term “Sanitary Engineer” came into use in many areas of the United States. Most of us know what a “Sanitary Engineer” is – a garbage man or if you are in the U.K., a “Dustman”! Now, that seems to be a stretch for the term engineer, but if you are working knee deep in shi-, you may as well amuse yourself and have a “title”. After all, you are probably earning minimum wage and should have some sense of esteem in your life.
>
>Enter “Software Engineer”. Now, I am a software developer or programmer, but I am not a “Software Engineer”. What in the Hel* is a “Software Engineer”? Add the additional terms that go along with the territory – consultant, and the many Microsoft acronyms to name a few. It seems we have more in common with the “Dustman” than with the electrical engineer. As I stand knee deep in corporate and client shi-, I realize there must be something better in life – a calling if you will. But I refuse to be called a “Software Engineer”!
>
Back in the early 70s I was acquainted with a fellow who (tried to - don't know its final status) started "The Institute for Software Engineering". All I can remember now is that his last name started with a "K".
Anyway, my boss being an Engineer, he was interested and sent a couple of us outto SF to some of his "courses" (more like discussions but VERY interesting nonetheless). His focus then was mainly metrics, not limited to programmer productivity but even more so on application/system performance.


>As for “certification”, that is a most complex issue. Who will certify what and why? Having a degree in Computer Science means little I have noticed. Real experience will allow success not a degree in Video Games! Personally, I think that Computer degrees should be BA’s and not BS. Science this ain’t! How many languages should one “master” and what other criteria should you be conversant with and to what degree?
>
While I think we are certainly ready for some kind of certification program that is wider than a specific compnay/product, there can be problems. If each state/province had their own "boards", as happens for medicine/law/engineering/etc then we'd likely have trouble.
For instance, there is an acknowledged shortage of Doctors and Nurses in Canada. We have lots of people, said to number in the tens of thousands, who immigrated here with certification in their own countries yet have virtually no chance at this time of practising here. These boards have, as one of their main objectives, protecting existing members regardless of circumstance/need. And they are different from province to province, evewn making it difficult for a, say, Quebec Dr. to practice in Ontario.
There is also the problem that these boards are, basically, a separate "level" of the law. I find that concept abhorrant! They get to discipline themselves and such rarely amounts to more than a slap on the wrist.

>Perhaps apprentice programs leading to journeyman status? In Germany the building trade’s have apprentice’s, journeyman and Masters. Masters train those below them.
>
>Lacking any means of “ranking” a software developer, one must gain experience and a list of satisfied clients. Or one could work at the corporate level with all that goes with such a life.
>
>This topic does deserve discussion and I see no easy answer.
>
>Tom

JimN